Archive-name: greek-faq/linguisticsăLast-modified: 1993/03/26ăăSoc.Culture.Greek Frequently Asked Questions and Answersă========================================================ă(Linguistics)ă=============ăăLast Change: 20 February 1993ăăMany FAQs, including this one, are available on the archive siteăpit-manager.mit.edu (alias rtfm.mit.edu) [18.172.1.27] in the directoryăpub/usenet/news.answers. The name under which a FAQ is archived appearsăin the Archive-name line at the top of the article.ăThis FAQ is archived as greek-faq/linguisticsăăThere's a mail server on that machine. You send a e-mail message toămail-server@pit-manager.mit.edu containing the keyword "help" (withoutăquotes!) in the message body.ăăăItems Changed:ă--------------ăă--ăăLines which got changed, have the `#' character in front of them.ăAdded lines are prepended with a `+'ăRemoved lines are just removed. Use 'diff' to locate these changes.ăăI have included my comments within braces '[' and ']'.ăăNikolaos Fotisăă========================================================================ăăThis text is (C)Copyright 1992, 1993 of Nikolaos C. Fotis. You can copyăfreely this file, provided you keep this copyright notice intact.ăăCompiled by Nikolaos (Nick) C. Fotis, e-mail: nfotis@theseas.ntua.grăăPlease contact me for updates,corrections, etc.ăăDisclaimer: that's only a hasty collection of texts and information as Iă(or other people) remember it, so this file is worth only what you paidăfor it (and even less! ;-) )ăă========================================================================ăăSubjects:ă=========ăă1. Difference between Ancient Greek pronunciations and modernă=============================================================ă Greek pronunciations??ă ======================ăăI ask the people to send me stuff in order to make this file moreăcomplete. I'm just a kind of editor, and I cannot know everything.ăăYOU'll determine if this FAQ is good or not!ăă========================================================================ăă1. Difference between Ancient Greek pronunciations and modernă=============================================================ă Greek pronunciations??ă ======================ăă[ This question spawned a HUGE thread!! I'm quoting from the variousă correspodents who participated in this thread . Basically, there areă two subtopics here:ăă a. How does one express pronounciation of Greek text in English-likeă languages?ă b. How did ancient Greeks pronounce their written works??ăă There's no end to this debate. I'm just quoting the various opinionsă and (mis)information ;-) presented in USENET -- nfotis . I hope no oneă asks again about that subject :-/ ]ăăFrom: adjg@sour.sw.oz.au (Andrew Gollan)ă----ăădrg@candidus.ma30.bull.com (Daniel R. Guilderson) writes:ăă|I have an English translation of Homer's Odyssey. There is aă|pronunciation key in an appendix but the author states that ALL 'c'să|are pronounced as 'k' and all 'ch's as 'kh'. Well I know that modernă|Greeks pronounce Chios as hee'os. So how would you pronounce Circe^ă|(circumflex over the e) and Cynthera? I can't imagine pronouncingă|Circe^ as kir'kee, although anything is possible I suppose.ăă|Maybe someone from s.c.g can comment on some of the differencesă|between Ancient Greek pronunciations and modern Greek pronunciations?ăăYou are pushing shit uphill trying to reconstruct the Classical Greekăpronunciation from the "English" equivalents. All but a very few Englishăworks adopt the Latinized spellings of the Greek names, which were themselvesăat best an approximation. We then apply modern English pronunciation toăthe Latin spellings resulting in completely warped pronunciation.ăă Latinized Greek letter Soundă --------- ------------ -----ă a (short) alpha u as in 'cup'ă a (long) alpha a as in 'father'ă b beta b as in 'bed'ă c kappa as french hard c: 'comment'ă d delta d as in 'dog'ă e (short) epsilon e as in 'pet'ă e (long) eta as all of 'air'ă f - -ă g gamma g as in 'god'ă h (initial) rough breathing h as in 'hot'ă i iota i as in 'pit'ă j - -ă k kappa as french hard c: 'comment'ă l la(m)bda l as in 'lid'ă m mu m as in 'mud'ă n nu n as in 'net'ă o (short) omicron o as in 'pot'ă o (long) omega aw as in 'awful'ă p pi as french p: 'Paris'ă q - -ă r rho rolled r as in french: 'rue'ă s sigma s as in 'sad' (mostly)ă t tau as french t: 'tu'ă u omicron+upsilon oo as in 'tool'ă v - -ă w - -ă x xi x as in 'fax' (even first in a word)ă y (short) upsilon as french u: 'tu'ă y (long) upsilon as french u: 'sur'ă z zeta zdăă ch khi c as in 'cot' (emphatically)ă ph phi p as in 'pot' (emphatically)ă th theta t as in 'top' (emphatically)ăă ae alpha+iota as all of 'eye'ă au alpha+upsilon as ow in 'cow'ă ei epsilon+iota a as in 'take'ă eu epsilon+upsilon as all of 'yew' (sort of)ă oi omicron+iota oy as in 'boy'ăăThe latinization is not quite regular in its treatment of upsilon. Wordsăwhich start with upsilon in Greek always have a rough breathing (i.e. anăinitial 'h') but this is not always transcribed into latin. Also someăupsilons are transcribed as 'u' not 'y', which adds to the confusion.ăNote the major differences between the long and short versions of the vowels,ăthis, combined with the total absense of any marking for the length, givesăyou a lot of leeway for mispronouncing these names. Without looking themăup in the Greek you just can't know the length.ăăThe Greek accent of the time was a melodic rather than the modern stressăaccent. There were three marks an acute ('), a grave (`) and a circumflex (~)ăwhich indicated the type of pitch change to apply to a word. Almost allăwords have exactly one stress mark somewhere in the last three syllables.ăThis is not recorded in the Latinization.ăăăFrom: ccc@cs.toronto.edu ("Christina C. Christara")ă----ăăIt seems correct that the c's are pronounced as k's.ăIn ancient Greek,ăan i is pronounced as i in kit (i.e. short ee)ăAn eta is pronounces as ee (i.e. long)ăAn y is also pronounced same as i (but thinner).ăTherefore Circe^ should be Kirkeeăand Cynthera Kintheera.ăHere the `th' combination is pronounced as the first 2 letters in `think'.ăăIn modern Greek, i, eta, and y are all pronounced almost the same.ăThere is no short, long, thin e.ăAs for the 'ch's I don't think that there is a respective soundăin English. The closest is a strong 'h'. 'kh' is not that far either.ăAlso, as far as I know, ancient Greeks pronounced the first soundăof some words deeper than modern Greeks.ăThese words, when they lost the deep sound in the beginningă(this could have happened at the end of the Hellenistic period),ăwere written with a so-called `spirit' (daseia in Greek)ăto remind the deep sound. Such words are found in Englishăstarting with `h'. Examples `hyper' (yper), hippopotamusă(ippopotamos), hero (eros, pronounced eeros, this does not mean love)ăhorizon (orizwn, the w is omega), rhetor (retwr) etc.ăAnother difference between ancient and modern Greek pronounciationăis the diphthong case. Modern Greeks pronounce `ai' as `e' (epsilon),ă`ou' as `u' (as in put), `ei' as `ee', `eu' as `ef' or `ev',ă`au' as `af' or `av', while ancient Greeks pronounced the twoăsounds with their original sound, i.e. each phthong separetely,ăwithout creating new phtongs.ăăăFrom: kd@doc.ic.ac.uk (Kostis Dryllerakis)ă----ăă There is a wide debate about the pronunciation of ancient greek.ăIt is obvious that we have no sound record of the era and we can onlyăreconstruct sounds from their evolution to modern greek (actually thereăare studies about the "special" words that imitate sounds like pain,ăand animal sounds but I haven't heard of definite conclusions).ăă The controvercy on the pronunciation of ancient greek started whenăEuropean classic scholars requested a code to be adopted as theă"standard one" among them. Erasmus is principally responsible for theăpronunciation given to ancient greek from scholars even now. Hisăproposal was based to the closeness of the ancient greek to the latin-basedălanguages and was many times arbitrary. Later in his life he is said toăhave renounced his own pronunciation scheme.ăă So the controversy will remain live. For us greeks, we would likeăto believe that our language is not only close to ancient greek to itsăsymbols but also to its sounds. I beleive that I speak for all of the fellowăscientists when I say that we are at least amused by the pronunciation of theăgreek alphabet as used in mathematics related sciences.ăăTake care when you refer to "correct pronunciation" to mention a particularăera in history since you do not expect people at Homer's time to haveăpronounced things the same way as in classical or Hellenistic times. In caseăyou believe this is possible it might be wise to also check the modern greekăpronunciation.ăăFrom: wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener)ă----ăăThe languages of Western Europe absorbed many Greek wordsăand place names through Latin translations. Remember thatăin Latin, Cicero is pronounced "Kikero," Caesar as "Kaisar,"ăand so forth. When these Latinised names were transmutedăinto English, French, and the other languages of WesternăEurope, the spelling for the most part remained the same,ăbut the difference in pronounciation was not taken intoăaccount. Circe, if I am not mistaken, is indeed pronouncedă"kir'kee" in Greek. Interestingly, Russian and other Slavicălanguages preserved the ancient pronounciation of Greekănames better than Western Europe. Cyprus, in Russian,ăis Kipr, Plato is "Platon," Thucydides is "Fukidid," etc.ăăFrom: mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon)ă----ăă> There is a wide debate about the pronunciation of ancient greek.ă>It is obvious that we have no sound record of the era and we can onlyă>reconstruct sounds from their evolution to modern greek (actually thereăăThat is part, but only part, of the data. There are, additionally, theătranscriptions of Greek words into other languages (Latin, Persian,ăCoptic, Hebrew, Aramaic, and on into the later movements of peoples ofăvarious languages), all variously well known -- plus of course borrowingăin the other direction INTO Greek, at various times. There are also theăcomments on pronunciation BY ancient Greek grammarians (not as good atăthis as the Sanskrit school leading to Panini, but still quite valuable).ăăAll of this can be used to cross-check and validate/falsify hypothesesăabout ancient Greek pronunciations, and the hypotheses themselves andăthe standards for reasoning about them derive from a very considerableămodern development of phonology and theoretical linguistics.ăăNone of this makes the results "certain" -- but a lot more is securelyăknown than in the first fumbling days of the rediscovery of Greek byăthe Western Europeans. It is also a somewhat distinct issue from thatăof a TEACHING pronunciation of Greek -- there are enough unresolvedă(and probably unresolvable) problems like just how to produce the pitchăaccents (simply importing Asian models begs the question) that teachersăgenerally follow and establish local practive even knowing that it isănot a good "reproduction" of the ancient sound.ăăFrom: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)ă----ăă>Maybe someone from s.c.g can comment on some of the differencesă>between Ancient Greek pronunciations and modern Greek pronunciations?ăăăThe big differences:ăă The differences between H, I, Y, EI, OI and YI (did I forget one?)ăhave become extinct. Actually, the popular Greek singer Savvopoulos andăsome computer-armed speech scientists came forward a few years ago,ăproving that a difference still exists, although it is nowhere asăpronounced as it used to be.ăă Ditto for O and W (omega), ditto for E and AI.ăăThe 'h' sound before some words (represented by ` on the first letter)ăhas dissapeared. Example Hellas -> Ellas. Ditto for the differences inăpronounciation marked by psili vs daseia vs perispomeni. For thatăreason, (and to ease the transition to automation), all theseăpunctuation points were merged to one, a few years ago.ăă But what do I know? I am a programmer, not a linguist. J.T.Pring writesăin his preface of the Oxford Dictionary of Modern Greek:ăă<>ăă[things in brackets are Michael's comments]ăăFrom: ls1@cec1.wustl.edu (Lambros Skartsis)ă----ăă[ About the Erasmian model of pronounciation ]ăă> ccc@cs.toronto.edu ("Christina C. Christara"):ă>ă>> ls1@cec1.wustl.edu (Lambros Skartsis)ă>>ă>>I think that it was Erasmus who first claimed the above, as well as thată>>the today's "soft" greek consonents (ghamma, dhelta, etc.) were pronouncedă>>as "hard" by the ancients (i.e., "g", "d", etc.) - and so the termă>>Erasmian pronounciation. I believe that this theory is very highlyă>>disputed today.ă>ă>I received another message about this, and I think you are right.ă>Indeed, I have heard that there is a dispute about the pronounciationă>proposed by Erasmus, and that many of his interpretations of theă>Greek sounds/letters/language are questioned.ă>When I was in high-school I was taught the Erasmian interpretationă>and nothing else. I heard about the dispute later.ăăActually, even this dispute became an emotional matter for the greeks.ăIf you really think about it, not only the language but the way it isăpronounced is a matter related to the national characteristics of a nation.ăImagine ancient greek pronounced the Erasmian way: with all these hardăconsonents and the abundance of two-vowel sets (i.e., vowel followed byăvowel). The latter is something that we know very well that wasăconsidered as quite bad-sounding to a anc.greek's ear ("hasmodia").ăActually the whole effect would be an almost .... dutch sounding - andăhence the accusation by many greeks that all these Erasmian theoriesăso often adopted by germanic scholars were a part of the well-knownătrend of association of ancient greek culture/arian theories/modern germanicăpeoples. The greeks of course go to the other extreme and often preach thatăhardly any basic change occured in accent.ăFor the dipthong pronounciation argument (i.e., e.g. "oi"="i" or "o-i") I hadăseen some time ago the following evidence against the Erasmian pronounciationă[the validity of the theory behind which , as I said earlier, I believe notăto be that popular any more(?)]: an Athenianăspeaker is said to have confused his audience by the use of the wordă"loimos" vs. "limos" (both, in modern greek would be pronounced as "leemos",ăwhile they mean [in both anc. and modern greek] a desease and hunger,ărespectively). For a confusion to have occured, it is argued, both wordsăshould have been pronounced the same in ancient greek, as well.ăăFrom: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)ă----ăă[Mr. Fouliras notes thată1) noone really knows what the *real* pronunciation was like,ă2) that accent marks were added later to help with the learning task,ă3) that there were various dialects of ancient Greek.]ăăAs my final contribution to this thread, I will note that the authorăof the above tape set spends many minutes at the beginningăof the tapes making all of these points, and more, discussingăwhy we should bother learning how to pronounce ancient Greekă(not only for intellectual honesty, but for a complete aestheticăexperience); how we know the way the language was pronouncedă(a specific greek Grammerian was mentioned, talking aboutăthe circumflex ("bending the pitch"), the grave and acute accents,ăas well as a specific example of how the borrowing of a Greekăword into Latin (pilosopia) gives a clue to the pronunciationăof 'p,'); and finally, that there were various dialects -- theăAeolic, the Attic, the Ionic -- and that the only one of theseăthat we have much evidence for is the Attic of classical Athens,ăthat though we have few clues how Homeric Greek might have beenăspoken, since the received texts of Homer are from the later periodăanyway, this is what is will be covered.ăăThe narrator fully acknowledges that although his reconstructionăis necessarily hypothetical, nevertheless it is based on solidăscholarship, and he references the _Vox Graeca_ that others inăthis thread have mentioned, and another work I can't recall now,ăalso discussing why his reconstruction is superior to that of Erasmus.ăăIncluded in the tape are examples of the opening lines ofăthe Iliad, as spoken by a modern Greek, by a person speakingăthe Erasmeian reconstruction, and his reconstruction, includingăall of the pitch and metrical accents. The tapes, afterăcovering the pronunciation of individual letters, progressesăto that of the various accent marks, and then to how toămaster the poetical meter of e.g. Homer, using a five stepălearning process. The last examples given are passagesăfrom major authors like Aeschylus, Euripides, Plato, andălastly, that of the only complete extant poem of Sappho,ăwith a soooo exquisite dovely cooing quality to it that myăspine tingles now thinking of it.ăăFrom: wiltinkm@dutiws.twi.tudelft.nl (M. Wiltink.a73A.telnr-015-138378)ă----ăăIt seems to me that most, if not all of the people here start withăEnglish renderings of Latinised versions of Greek names and thenăwonder where things went wrong.ăăThe Greeks had no such letter as the c. They had sigma, which posesăno problems and becomes s, and kappa, k. This is where most of theătrouble starts. Most Greek words passed on to recent times came viaăLatin. Latin, however, had no (well, almost no) k and used c, pronouncedă...k. Then modern languages started pronouncing c as either s or k,ădepending on what letter followed it. Believe it or not, ALL c's inăwords derived from Greek should be pronounced k. The same, by the way,ăgoes for c's in Latin words, though this should not be taken to meanăthat I want everybody to pronounce 'circus' 'kirkus'. There are wordsăthat have become sufficiently English to pronounce them by the rulesăfor English, which say that ce, ci are pronounced se, si. But in mostăGreek names, I myself do prefer to write and pronounce k - Alkibiades,ăto name one example.ăă[ ccc@cs.toronto.edu ("Christina C. Christara") comments on the lastă paragraph:ăăI agree, with a minor comment.ăI think the (ancient) Greeks had 2 alphabets, which were very similarăto each other. One was called western or Chalkidean (by people fromăChalkis) and the other eastern or Ionian (by people from Asia Minor,ăcentered in Miletos).ăI think (but I am not sure) that the western had a 'c'.ăBut Athens at some point around 400 BC decided to adopt the eastern-ăIonian alphabet and drove all Greeks in that way. The western-Chalkideanăalphabet was used as basis for the Latin alphabet (indirectlyăthrough the Etruscan one?). Todays Greek alphabet is the eastern-Ionianăone, with the lower case letters developed later.ăăEnd of parenthesis -- nfotis ]ăăThe same goes for ai, which became ae in Latin and is generally, thoughănot universally, pronounced ay as in 'hay'. Personally and subjectively,ăI prefer the sound found in 'high'. The upsilon, u, is a bit different.ăIt was transcribed y in Latin but in German and in Scandinivian languagesăy is still pronounced u. This is sometimes a major source of irritation forăme, as most ski-jumping commentators pronounced 'Nyk\"anen' 'Nikaanen'ăinstead of 'Nukaynen' during the time he was all over Sportnet.ăăFrom: cla02@keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace)ă----ăă[ Regarding the last post... ]ăThis is almost, but not quite, right.ăăThere were in fact many Greek alphabets. I suspect every city had itsăown variant. and even within cities there is not total consistency. Theyădo, however, fall into families, and the division between east and westăis significant.ăăThe origin of the letter c is rather odd. The Romans got their alphabetăfrom the Etruscans, who got it from the Greeks. There is a dispute as toăwhether the alphabet the Etruscans adopted was a west or east Greekăalphabet. Common sense would suggest that they got it from the nearestăGreeks to them, those in Cumae, who used a variant of the west Greekăalphabet. On the other hand, the occasional use of the east Greek letterăsamech is evidence against this view. It was not, however, the Athenianăalphabet; it contained, for example, the letter Koppa, which became theăancestor of our Q. Etruscan did not distinguish between voiced andăunvoiced gutturals (K and G), and so used both of those letters for theăsame sound. The Romans, however, did (like us) make the distinction, butăinstead of doing the rational thing and reinstating the original uses ofăthe Greek letters, they marked the gamma to signify when it wasăunvoiced. So: C is originally a gamma (write a capital gamma leaning aăbit and you will see how it happened); G is a gamma with a marker toăshow that it really is a gamma. And that is why the Roam alphabetăacquired 3 letters for the same sound: K,C and Q.ăăJust to make life complicated, in some forms of Greek writing the sigmaăis written a bit like our c. This has been adopted by some modernăscholars (we call it the lunate sigma) especially by epigraphists who doănot want to beg questions about where words end.ăă[ In another post, regarding Greek alphabets ]ăăLambros Skartsis (ls1@cec1.wustl.edu) wrote:ă:ă: cla02@keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace) writes:ă:ă: >... The Romans got their alphabetă: >from the Etruscans, who got it from the Greeks. There is a dispute as toă: >whether the alphabet the Etruscans adopted was a west or east Greekă: >alphabet. Common sense would suggest that they got it from the nearestă: >Greeks to them, those in Cumae, who used a variant of the west Greekă: >alphabet.ă:ă: Richard, wasn't Cumae a colony of the greek city called Cyme, in Euboea?ă: (the colony retained the name Cyme, Cumae being the latin version).ă: That is the only theory I am aware of (I can't pretend to have muchă: knowledge on theă: topic!), i.e., that Etruscans took their alphabet from Cyme. But didă: the mother-city (metropolis) in Euboea use the west form of the alphabet?ăăThere is a tradition the Cumae was founded from the Greek city Cyme inăAeolis in Asia Minor (just a bit north of Smyrna). Strabo says it was aăjoint foundation of Chalcis and Cyme in Euboea, which explains its nameă(he says that they did a deal that the city should be called after Cyme,ăbut be a colony of Chalcis) , but he also records traditions that it wasăa colony of Chalcis alone, and gives another explanation for the name. Iăwould guess that this means that the Cyme stories are just attempts atăetymology (but who knows?).ăăAnyway, none of this is relevant, because they did use a version of theăChalcidian alphabet in Cumae. I think the Chalcidian alphabet isăclassified as a Western alphabet, isn't it?ăă[ He checked, in David Diringers 'The Alphabet' (3rd edition I think), andă he seems right ]ăăăFrom: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)ă----ăăThe Pronunciation and Reading of Ancient Greek: A Practical GuideăStephen G. DaitzăISBN 0-88432-125-8ăăAudio Forum, a div. of Jeffrey-Norton PublishersăOn-The-Green, Guillford, CT 06437ăăNew York sales office:ă145 E. 49th, NY,NY 10017ăăLondon salesă31 Kensington Church St.ăLondon W8 4LL, U.K.ăăOther tapes in The Living Voice of Greek and Latin Lit.:ăă_The Birds_ăCicero, selectionsă_Hekabe_ăGreek PoetryăThe P. & R. of Ancient LatinăăFrom: filippou@cs.mcgill.ca (Dimitrios FILIPPOU)ă----ăăFrom "Vox Graeca: A Guide to Pronunciation of Classical Greek", by W.ăSidney Allen, 3rd Edition, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge,ăGreat Britain 1987, pp. 177--179.ăăă SUMMARY OFă RECOMMENDED PRONUNCIATIONSăă(`English' refers to the standard or `received' pronunciations ofăSouthern British English. Asterisks indicate less accurateăapproximations.)ăăalpha (short) As first `a' in Italian `amare'ă *As vowel of English `cup'ă (N.B. not as vowel of `cap')ăăalpha (long) As second `a' in Italian `amare'ă *As `a' in English `father'ăăalpha with iota As `alpha (long)'ă subscriptăăalpha-iota As in English `high'ăăalpha-upsilon As in English `how'ăăalpha (long)- As `alpha-upsilon'ă upsilonăăbeta As English `b'ăăgamma (1) As English "hard" `g'ă (2) Before kappa, chi, gamma, mu:ă as `n' in English `ink' or `ng' in `song'ăădelta As French `d'ă *As English `d'ăăepsilon As in English `pet'ăăepsilon-iota As in German `Beet'ăăepsilon-upsilon Pronounce as two vowels: `epsilon' `upsilon'ăăzeta [zd] as in English `wisdom'ăăeta As in French `t^ete'ăăeta with iota As `eta'ă subscriptăăeta-upsilon As `epsilon-upsilon'ăătheta As `t' in English `top' (emphatically pronounced)ă *As `th' in English `thin'ăăiota (short) As in French `vite'ă *As in English `bit'ăăiota (long) As in French `vive'ă *As in English `bead'ăăkappa As French "hard" `c', or English (non-initial)ă `k', `ck', or "hard" `c'ăălambda As French `l', or English `l' before vowelsă *As English `l' in other contextsăămu As English `m'ăănu As `n' in French or *English `net'ăăxi As `x' in English `box'ăăomicron As in German `Gott'ă *As in English `pot'ăăomicron-iota As in English `boy', `coin'ăăomicron-upsilon As in English `pool' or French `rouge'ăăpi As French `p', or English (non-initial) `p'ăărho As Scottish "rolled" `r'ăăsigma (1) As `s' in English `sing', or `ss' in `less',ă `lesson'ă (2) Before `beta', `gamma', `delta', `mu': asă English `z' (N.B. but not elsewhere)ăăsigma-sigma As `sigma' `sigma'ăătau As French `t'ă *As English (non-initial) `t'ăăupsilon (short) As in French `lune'ăăupsilon (long) As in French `ruse'ăăupsilon-iota [no pronunciation rule given]ăăphi As `p' in English `pot' (emphatically pronounced)ă *As `f' in English `foot'ăăchi As `c' in English `cat' (emphatically pronounced)ă *As `ch' in Scottish `loch'ăăpsi As `ps' in English `lapse'ăăomega As in English `saw'ăăomega with iota As `omega'ă subscriptăă[The author of this monography discusses also how to pronounce theăaccented vowels and the double consonants. In conclusion, he saysăthat the accents should not be pronounced in a `melodic' way -- which,ăhe states, was the way Ancient Greek was spoken --, but rather inăa `stress-based' way like Byzantine and Modern Greek, because theăAncient Greek melodic pronounciation of accents is not known. Heăalso states that the iota-subscript should not have any effect on theăpronounciation of the vowel it accompanies. Finally, he says thatădouble consonants should be pronounced the same as single ones, onlyăa bit longer.]ăăăFrom: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)ă----ăă>By the way, Greek netters seem to have some ideological reasonă>to believe that their native language is very similar toă>classical Greek. In practise I've had a lot of troubles whenăă I think that there is some confusion here between 'language' andăpronounciation. The language is extremely similar, especially if oneăcompares late hellenistic period Greek (circa 1 a.d.) with modernăGreek. It is much easier for me as a modern Greek to read the NewăTestament (1950 years old), that it is for an english-speaking person toăread Chaucher (a modern piece of work, by comparison).ăă The pronounciation changed a lot. But, again, changes since the lateăhellenistic period are minor compared to the changes to English sinceăhalf that long ago. In general, it is agreed that Greek pronounciationăhas changed very little since 1000ad.ăă In fact, as recently as a few decades ago, a number of regionalădialects used syntactical and phonological features of correspondingăancient Greek dialects (in mountainous northern Laconia, for example,ăwhere the ancient Doric dialect survived practically intact).ăUnfortunately, after WWII, control of education was taken away from theălocal village/parish level, and all Greeks now sound like they are fromăAthens. Only recently did Greeks realise what a terrible waste ofăvaluable cultural resources that was.ăă[ When challenged "why these valuable resources, in light of the need toă rebuild the country from zero?", in my words, he replied:ăă1. There was no effort to study and record these languages. Whereăsome research was made (with the Tsakones, for example), dialects wereăfound that were completely identical to the corresponding ancient Greekădialects for those regions. Having records of these dialects wouldăprovide us with valuable information about ancient and byzantine Greek.ăă2. Ditto for all the regional literature of these areas. Along withăthese dialects, we also tossed away volumes of oral tradition. Again,ăwhere ever research was made, the knowledge gained was tremendous. Byăthe time the Greek state woke up to what had happened, and startedăfunding research projects, many papoudes and giagiades had died, andăwith them many stories that the younger generation did not learn becauseăanything said in a village dialect was considered 'unimportant' andă'uncultured'. The end result was the same as if though thousands ofăbooks had been burned.ăă In all fairness, it is hard to blame anyone for what happened. WithăGreece badly underdeveloped in the 1920s, the big restructuring ofăeducation, which became totally centralised after WWII, was nescessary.ăBack then development was the only priority, and the funds for researchăwere not available.ă]ăăă>pronouncing Greek names in the classical way, which is usuală>for Finns (even tourists without any classical education).ă>I was unable to find my way to Herakleion before I learnedă>to call it "Iraklio".ăă But what is the 'Classical Way'? This subject started with a questionăon the pronunciation of 'Circee'. All english educated people know thatăthis is pronounced 'Sir-see'. Yet, everyone who expressed an opinion onăthis group so far has agreed that the right pronounciation is 'Kir-kee'.ăAs for "Herakleion', most americans would pronounce it 'He-ra-KLEI-on',ăbecause the anglisezed word does not carry the accent mark, which makesăthe classical prounanciation 'He-RA-klei-on'.ăăAccording to J.T. Pring's comments which I posted a few days ago:ăăBoth the Eta (H) and the Epsilon-iota (EI) had become I by earlyăbyzantine times --> hi-RA-kli-onăăThe initial h dissapeared by the fourth century AD --> i-RA-kli-onăăThe final 'n' began dropping out of use in local dialects sinseăByzantine times, and is now becoming rare, but many people still use it,ăin fact pre-1980 road signs and maps usually read "HRAKLEION".ăăSo, one's classical pronounciation of 'Herakleion' would have been asămuch understood in 1992ad as it would have been understood in 400ad. Notăbad, I think.ăă========================================================================ăăEnd of Linguistics Part of the FAQă-- ăNick (Nikolaos) Fotis National Technical Univ. of Athens, GreeceăHOME: 16 Esperidon St., InterNet : nfotis@theseas.ntua.gră Halandri, GR - 152 32 UUCP: mcsun!ariadne!theseas!nfotisă Athens, GREECE FAX: (+30 1) 77 84 578ă