Date 12-01-91 08:01:00 From Terry Blount To Lonnie Hortick Subject The Virgin Mary LH> womb. But if Jesus was/is God from the moment of his conception LH> then the Mary IS the Mother of God! And NO ONE has said that LH> Mary gave Jesus his divinity. He already had that! You are working from the assumption that Jesus was God. Consider the following scripture and you may not have to wonder about Mary any more: MAR 13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. JOH 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. JOH 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 1TI 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; COL 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. JOH 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 1JO 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 2JO 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. GEN 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 2CO 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. ACS 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. MAT 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-01-91 13:11:00 From Terry Blount To John Fordenbacher Subject Jesus/GOD JF> It's real simple, there is nothing *we* can do to pay the price JF> for our sins. The reality is this: We cannot save ourselves without God's help and God cannot save man with out man's cooperation. ACS 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. MAT 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. MAT 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. JAM 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-01-91 19:28:00 From Terry Blount To C. Spurgeon Subject Exegetical Help Wanta CS> I found the Bible calling Jesus God all over the place both CS> OT AND NT so I had to come to the truth with out teaching from CS> the out side that Jesus is Jehovah. CS> but I see every time I talk to a JW he/she tells me he/she is CS> just going by the Bible, But thay alway pull a buch of books out CS> to show me how thay are only going by the Bible. CS> every time I come to a JW house that is if thay let me in, book, CS> after book after book, comes out just to show me what your Bible CS> says. the people who I seen come to christ out of the Jw church CS> is only after thay have take the chalnage of put aside for one CS> year the whachtower, the awake, and there other books and just CS> read the Bible. I would ask you to do the same If you would like CS> I could send you a NKJV Bible to read. CS> again My only hope is for you to come to know the true Jesus. I find this rather funny. Every religion I have investigated has 'their book' that explains 'The Book'. But you seem to be saying your religion does not have any doctrine of faith or pamphlets, sunday school lessons or any such 'bunch of books'. What religion are you by the way ? When someone asks you what they must do to be saved do you tell them just read the Bible ? Or do you have selected parts to show to them that emphasize your particular flavor of heresy ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-01-91 19:33:00 From Terry Blount To Roger Hepworth Subject Moderator RH> CM> 'Scuse me, but just who IS the moderator of the Open RH> Bible ech CM> like to know, just curious... RH> RH> I would like to know that also. RH> if you fined out could you let me know. I forgot but I did hear he went to school and I have not noticed the rules getting posted for several months now. Since there doesn't seem to be one maybe we should have an election and choose from among the folks who have been here for a long time. But since that narrows the choices down to me, Tim, and Ralph that may not be the best idea. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-01-91 19:40:00 From Terry Blount To Roger Hepworth Subject The "virgin" Mary RH> None of the first and second centry church fathers believed that RH> Mary remained a virgin. True and none of them believed Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born either. Both the Lukan and Matthew genealogies trace the family line of Joseph. Almost no modern scholars tries to solve the differences between them by conjecturing that one belonged to Mary. However, if Jesus was not the actual son of Joseph, what value would there be in tracing Joseph's lineage back to David, Abraham or Adam ?? This provokes the question, how important is the virgin-birth concept for the messianic work of Jesus ? Is it an essential dogma of Christian faith to believe that Jesus had no physical father ? What theological value is attached to the Virgin Mary ? All of the ancient creeds affirm the virginity of Mary. However, this uninimity does not apply to the New Testament. Matthew and Luke alone give infancy stories about Jesus. Mark, John and Paul ignore completely the idea that Mary gave birth to her son without uniting with a man. Paul makes two very vague references to Jesus' birth. In Galatians he writes that "God sent forth His Son, born of a woman" (4:4-5) and in Romans he speaks of Jesus "born of the seed of David" (1:3). These texts give no support to the virgin-birth doctrine. As for Mark and John, those Gospels express so little interest in the nativity of Jesus that Mark does not mention the name of Joseph and John does not tell us Jesus' mother's name. Because of this awkward silence about Mary's virginity in most of the New Testament, it is doubtful that the story of the virginal conception was handed down by the family of Jesus to the apostles. Aside from the opening chapters of Matthew and Luke, the virgin birth is completely ignored in the accounts of Jesus' mature life, ministry, death and resurrection. Next the notion of Mary's virginity may have something to do with a mistranslation of a messianic text taken from Isaiah. The Hebrew version of Isaiah 7:14 states that a "young girl" will give birth to a son whom she will call Emmanuel. However, the Greek Septuagint translation states that "a virgin will be with child whom they will call Emmanuel." Because Matthew believed that Jesus was the Messiah whose coming was predicted exactly in Scripture, he concluded that Jesus must have been born of a virgin. In the ancient world, it was believed that the male alone produces the child and the female merely serves as a vessel in which the baby is carried. Modern science has proven that both parents determine the physical and psychological constitution of their child. Since both the father and mother would transmit any biological effects of original sin, it would not make Jesus sinless to deprive him of a human father. Most importantly, Christians today would question the notion that sexual intercourse is intrinsically sinful. Ancient Jews used to teach, to produce a child it is necessary to have three partners - the father, mother and God. Was Joseph then the father of Jesus ? If so, why was it necessary to concoct a virgin-birth legend ? Judaism did not expect a virgin- born Messiah, according to the Strack-Billerbeck "Commentary on the New Testament from he Talmud and Midrash." That hypothesis represents an "absolute novelty" for Jewish thought. However, Christians generally agree that Joseph was in no way implicated in the conception of Jesus. Thus, one can only assume that someone else was responsible. From early times, Jewish critics of Christianity claimed that Mary had an illicit affair with a Roman soldier named Pandera. Such allegations seem to have been devised long after the New Testament narratives in order to refute what Christians were teaching. A better explanation has been offered by Dr. Leslie Weatherhead, the longtime minister at City Temple, London. Throughout the ancient Near East a "sacred marriage" ceremony was often conducted in which either the high priest of king played the part of the divine messenger. During these rites, he was married to a virgin symbolizing the holy union of the sun god and the earth goddess. The offspring of such a mating was regarded as a divine incarnation. Now Zacharias was the priest on duty in the temple when Mary had a mystical experience in which she agreed to be a "slavegirl of the Lord." Though an elderly man, Zacharias was not impotent, for he had just made his wife Elizabeth pregnant. When the angel Gabriel announced to Mary that she would give birth to the Messiah , she replied, "How can this thing be, seeing that I know not a man?" The angel then told her that the Holy Spirit would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her. As soon as the young girl heard that she had been chosen to give birth to the Son of God, she "went with haste and entered the house of Zacharias" ( Lk :35 ). By giving herself to the aged priest, Mary would prove that she was truly a hand-maiden for he Lord. Such an act of total surrender, far from being considered immoral in the ancient world, revealed the highest degree of spiritual dedication. By uniting with the priest, Mary "found favor with God." ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 11-30-91 13:32:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject MOSES.5 PM> TB> Commandments, written on the two tablets. The Israelites PM> then TB> built the ark of the covenant and the tabernacle, with PM> the TB> tablets as the core. PM> PM> PM> My question, Terry, is this: PM> Do you observe the fourth commandment? PM> Or do you forget the one God said to remember? I see what you are getting at but I wonder if you are aware the same question could be asked of you about Christ ? HEB 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; If Christ is a more perfect tabernacle then is worshiping Christ as God a breech of of the forth commandment too ? I think we would agree that there holy things and places that signify a point in history when and where God and man had direct contact. Christ, the Tabernacle, the Bible, a Church, or Synagogue may be among those places/things that stand out from the fallen world. If you had a special experience with your father or mother when you were young and you passed by that place or went through your memorabilia and found something that reminded you of of the love your parents had for you would that mean you were placing an image before the love of your parents ? EXO 33:10 And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand [at] the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man [in] his tent door. EXO 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 11-30-91 13:32:00 From Terry Blount To ALL Subject JESUS.1 Jesus in the Dispensation for Restoration Jesus had the responsibility for substantially subjugating Satan. To do so he had to follow the model course that God had shown in the symbol and image courses of Jacob and Moses (Deut 18:18, Jn 5:19). But, just as the Israelites under Moses had fallen into faithlessness in the wilderness, the Israelites at the time of John the Baptist fell into faithlessness, with the result that Jesus' world-wide course of the restoration of Canaan also had to progress through three attempts or courses. The central person responsible to prepare the foundation for the dispensation of salvation at the time of the Messiah was to "make straight the way of the Lord" (Jn 1:23). This central person was John the Baptist, who was the "greatest born of women" (Mt 11:11). As was already explained in the chapter on Moses' course, the repeated faithlessness of the Israelites had given Satan the chance to invade Jesus' body, which was the incarnation of the rock and the tablets of stone. Therefore, throughout their history, God educated the chosen people to be a people who would not fall into faithlessness. He sent many prophets, especially the prophet Elijah, to teach the people to unite completely, centering on the Ideal of the Temple, which was itself the image of Jesus. However, because the Israelites repeatedly failed to have faith, Elijah's sole purpose, which was to turn the Israelites from their faithless ways back to God, was not fulfilled. Therefore, God said that Elijah would come again--to accomplish his mission (Mal 4:5). The return of Elijah was fulfilled in the person of John the Baptist (Lk 1:17; Mt 11:14; 17:13). He was the person who had the responsibility to establish the base of faith for the Messiah. John the Baptist was standing on the foundation of a forty-period of separation from Satan, the four-hundred-year Period of Preparation for the Messiah, which had begun with the prophet Malachi. Through his life of asceticism, John was able to separate from Satan and establish the Foundation of Faith. John lived in the wilderness eating locusts and honey, concerned and thinking about God's Will; so the priests and people of Israel looked on his life of faith with the greatest respect. John the Baptist was also in the Abel position for the Foundation of Substance, that is, he was the central person for establishing the Foundation of Substance. The mission of Moses had passed to Joshua, then to the prophets, including Elijah, and finally to John the Baptist. Therefore, John the Baptist was standing in the position of Moses. Moses had been the central person for the Foundation of Faith (in the parents' position) and the central person for the Foundation of Substance (in the position of the second-born). Likewise, John the Baptist had the dual mission of establishing the Foundation of Faith and standing in the Abel position as the central person for the Foundation of Substance. The national Foundation of Substance would have been established by the Israelites' loving and obeying John the Baptist, who was their national Abel. God had already prepared the chosen people to believe absolutely in John as a special prophet of God. Everyone knew that he was a great man of God, because they had heart of the angel's prophecy about his birth, of the miracle oÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-02-91 10:20:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject Exegetical Help Wanta PM> Isn't it 100% true that the God of Heaven says PM> He will leave them (unrepentant sinners) PM> neither root nor branch, that they shall be PM> dust under your feet? Mal. 4 It is also %100 ture that Jesus was describing the heart of God when he said: LUK 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found [it], he layeth [it] on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together [his] friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. 2PE 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Even fallen parents would try to rescue their chilren who were suffering how much more does our perfect parent, God, try to save His children from suffering. PM> Here's one for you: "Is Christ still suffering?" Yes Christ is suffering because everyone suffers when they are rejected. Christ wanted the people to love him: MAT 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. BUT JOH 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. LUK 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not! ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-02-91 10:33:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject IS JESUS ALSO MICHAEH PM> PB> When the body dies, the 'breath of life' separates PM> PB> from the body, and then has conscious existence of the PM> spirit PB> world. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ PM> You mean the body is merely the clay prisonhouse? No, it is not a prisonhouse it is like a flower pot which grows the flower that will eventually go to the spiritual world. This is the reason it is very important to keep your 'flower pot' (physical body) pure. If you commit immoral deeds it will deform your flower (spiritual body) and once you are in the spiritual world you cannot easily grow so you are stuck on the level you have reached while on earth. MAT 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. JOH 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Since the growth of the spiritual body REQUIRES give and take action with a physical body, we find examples of people who died without reaching perfection retruning to the earth to work with/for Chirst: MAR 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. MAT 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. God works to accomplish the total Dispensation for Restoration by calling many individuals and giving each the portion of work that is suitable for him. As the Dispensation progresses and a new central person is chosen for a mission, God progressively broadens the scale of the dispensation, expanding it from the individual level to the levels of the family, the nation, and the world. A person who dies without completing his mission must return and cooperate with a person on earth who has the same type of mission and the same spiritual disposition. From this mission-oriented viewpoint, the physical self of the person on earth becomes the physical self for the returning spirit person as well. In this sense, the person on earth becomes the "second coming" of the returning spirit person. When viewed with spiritual eyes, the person on earth could seem to be the reincarnation of the spirit person who is cooperating with him. For this reason in the Last Days many people will appear claiming to be Elijah, Buddha, Confucius, or the Olive Tree. It would seem that the theory of trans-migration, or reincarnation, is the result of interpreting what is happening based on appearances, without knowing the principles of returning resurrection. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-02-91 10:50:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject IS JESUS ALSO MICHAEH PM> I think I am saying that unless you have oxygen being PM> circulated in brain tissue, no thinking process is possible. PM> PM> "The living know that they shall die, the dead know not PM> anything." PM> And so, a future resurrection is *absolutely* essential, if PM> we are going to ever think again. Sounds like the JW view of death ? Do you think Jesus was confused when he spoke about Lazarus ? LUK 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. It seems to me that the only explanation you could offer for the countless experiences with evil spirits throughout the Bible is that they were speaking of angels. If evil spirits are not angels then they would have to be the spirits of evil people who had died and went into the spiritual world. 'Evil spirits' that were were mentioned over 20 times in the Bible but it does not say they were angels. In fact, Acs 23:9 says 'spirit OR an angel' making a distinction that spirits can talk. This tells me that spirits of departed people can think. Most talking being do have the capacity to think. ACS 23:9 And there arose a great cry: and the scribes [that were] of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Another scripture we should consider is: Hebrews 11:39-41 says, "And all these [saints of the Old Testament age], though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised [admission to the Kingdom of Heaven], since God had foreseen something better [the Kingdom of Heaven] for us [persons on earth], that apart from us they [spirit persons] should not be made perfect". ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-02-91 11:28:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject MOSES.6 PM> TB> ... Thus, the two tablets, as symbols PM> TB> of Adam and Eve, also symbolize Jesus and the Holy Spirit, PM> PM> Who would have believed it? Maybe this will help : HEB 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-02-91 11:34:00 From Terry Blount To Chris Stamper Subject who is god ? CS> > You don't yet understand these guys believe they have the CS> direct line to CS> > God and the idea of working with someone like a priest, CS> minister, rabbi, > or holy man is really foreign to them. CS> That's really funny since your idea of knowing God is bowing CS> down before Rev. Moon? Isn't that what your're saying? Of CS> course it is! Behind your endless posting is your belief in CS> Rev. Moon. How come you never discuss HIM??? MAT 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. CS> > The single thing in my faith that separates it most from CS> traditional > christianity is the understanding that a person CS> cannot come to God > alone. CS> ...he needs to bow before Rev. Moon, right? Spare us, PLEASE! See ^ I wish I could share more about Rev. Moon but the hostility like you represent makes it senseless. If you only knew what Rev. Moon was doing right now and could understand the siginfance of where he is and who he is meeting with it would blow you compeletly away... you would cry for days. A person like Jesus and Rev. Moon does not come to earth often and when they do, fallen man jeers, redicules and persecutes them ...then future generations grieve for their ancestors mis-behavior. If Rev. Moon is a man of God what do you suppose historians 1,000 years from now will say about you when they read this message ? ACS 5:34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. ACS 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-03-91 10:04:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject Covenant PM> In one screen or less, WHAT's the "covenant"? A covenant is a contract that spells out the different parties responsibilities and what each party stans to gain by keeping their part of the agreement. What does God gain through a covenant He makes with man ? What are God's goals ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-03-91 10:10:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject Jesus/GOD PM> JF>> Only GOD can forgive sins, but Jesus also forgave sins. PM> PM> TB> MAR 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath PM> TB> power on earth to forgive sins, PM> PM> Looks like you two are in agreement. PM> PM> I like the logic here displayed. phil Me too ! JOH 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-03-91 10:12:00 From Terry Blount To John Fordenbacher Subject Jesus/GOD JF> I do have one question for you, You say that moon was told by JF> Jesus about this new revelation of the scriptures. What I want JF> to know is who is his witness that he actually talked to Jesus? Do you believe God spoke to Moses ? Who witnessed the scene at the burning bush ? As a matter of fact Jesus said : ACS 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. People who were present did not even hear God speaking to Jesus. I just want to let you know that I am a witness that Rev. Moon is teaching the message Jesus gave to him. If you are ever asked why you did not listen to that message you cannot say that I did not testify to you that Rev. Moon received a revelation from God through Jesus Christ. If you go out and witness about Jesus and a person rejects your witness then does that person have the excuse that they never heard the truth ? I am testifying to you that I invested more than you can know in order to verify the truth of the Divine Principle. I prayed and fasted till God showed me clearly that this was the truth and a valid revelation from Him. Merely wishing and wondering if this revelation is true is not sufficient to move God. God is not going to waste His time with anyone who is not serious. That is why Jesus told YOU : MAR 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. Jesus predicted his followers may not recognize the second coming : LUK 18:8 ... Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? and Timothy said : 1TH 5:17 Pray without ceasing. All I want you to do is try it. If you convince God that you will be serious and take responsibility He will speak to you as He has done to me and millions of people who now understand the Divine Principle. I fear that America is loosing God's blessing. Thousands of students are attending Divine Principle workshops right now in Russia. If another nation responds to God's will we know what will happen to America : MAT 21:43ùTherefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. America is declining rapidly because God raised up America and blessed us for a purpose. Now what is America doing with that blessing ? A whore is one who sells herself out for pleasure and selfish gratification.ùThat is exactly what America has done. REV 17:1ùAnd there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: REV 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. REV 17:16ùAnd the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. REV 19:2 For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. What can we do to save America ? Christians are busy trying to perfect their own deomination.ùChrist's body is in sad shape being divided into 400 + denominations. Someone must come and bring unity. When your house is on fire you call someone from outside to come in and help. If you are sick you call upon a doctor to come and administer the cure. That is why Rev. Moon founded the Unification Church. Rev. Moon wants the body of Christ to be united and healthy enough to be able to muster a force that will be capable of dealing with Satan's force on a world wide level. The only thing I can find that Rev. Moon is teaching that freaks out fundamental Christians is that God wants to be a grand father. This means that Jesus should have married and perfected an ideal sinless family. I can't see why the idea that Jesus was supposed to fulfill the blessings originally given to Adam is so alarming. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-03-91 11:12:00 From Terry Blount To John Fordenbacher Subject The "virgin" Mary JF> Jesus could *NOT* have been born from sin, this "theory" is JF> totally false and a lie. So you believe that Sex is sinful ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-03-91 21:04:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Reynolds Subject Jesus/God PR> > JF> No man could pay the price for the sins of the world, only PR> GOD > JF> could paid the price, but Jesus did that also. PR> TB> You make it sound like it was God who sinned. Why should PR> God be the one PR> TB> to pay for my sins ? Who needs to repent me and you OR God PR> ? TB> LUK 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye PR> shall all TB> likewise perish. PR> TB> REV 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, PR> and will TB> fight against them with the sword of my mouth. PR> You are correct in who needs to repent, by why do you make this PR> claim that Jesus' vicarious death implicates Jesus in sin? Where did make that implication ? I maintain that Jesus never sinned or did anything to caused anyone to sin. PR> Don't these make it obvious? Have you not read these before? I'm not sure what point you wanted to make. Christ is the mediator between man and God. However we must repent and purify our hearts in order to stand in the presence of Jesus or God: PSA 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? PSA 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. PSA 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation. LUK 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. I simply don't see any allowance for impurity. There is this constant 'air' in the Open Bible conference that Jesus forgave us and everything is fine. The price is paid so we can keep on partying ! But that will only lead to hell. The way of the providence of restoration is a course of separating from the fallen world. It is the same thing as a once married woman getting remarried. It is like a woman who lives with Satan getting remarried to God. When a bride remarries a new husband,if she thinks of her former husband the new husband would not like it. Christianity seems to think that God should come down to their level rather than raising their level up to meet God's standard. No wonder they don't like Rev. Moon or his teaching. He understands that the desire of the Messiah is to pay the price for others. That is how restoration works and that is how his followers must think. The Old Testament was an era of offerings, the age where you sacrifice all things ...when material was sacrificed. The New Testament period is when children had to offer themselves as sacrifices. Yet we find christianity saying "Jesus did it all ...I don't need to do anything." Christianity is weak because the mind wins over the body. Therefore we must change. What must we do to reverse this ? How can the mind and body become one ? Religions have created doctrines to do this by making the body weak and the mind strong. Religion teaches us to discipline and subjugate the body centering on the mind. After the mind subjugates the body the foundation to receive the messiah is established. Do you understand this ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-03-91 21:04:00 From Terry Blount To ALL Subject JESUS.3 Satan's Three Temptations In Matthew 4:1-10 we read that Satan tested Jesus through three temptations. Satan's original purpose in attacking Jesus with these temptations was not to test any external conditions or Jesus's power to perform miracles, but was specifically intended to prevent Jesus from accomplishing his purpose as the Messiah. Because the Messiah comes to restore the world intended at the time of creation, which was not established because of Satan, from Satan's point of view, the Messiah's fulfilling his purpose would mean Satan's eternal destruction. Since the Kingdom of Heaven is based on The Principle, and since Adam had failed by not following The Principle, Satan's temptations centered on The Principle, and Jesus' answers had to be based on The Principle. More specifically, the world which the Messiah must create is the world intended at the time of creation, which is the world based on the fulfillment of God's Three Blessings. Thus, Jesus had to realize God's Three Blessings, and Satan's attempt to prevent Jesus from fulfilling his purpose was through three temptations that were based on the Three Blessings. The first temptation In the first temptation, Satan appeared before Jesus and said, "...'If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread'" (Mt 4:3). The stones in Satan's possession represented the broken tablets of stone and the rock that had been struck twice by Moses, Because of the faithlessness of the chosen people, Moses had broken the tablets of stones and had struck the rock twice, providing the basis for Satan to claim the rock. The stones with which Satan tempted Jesus symbolized Jesus himself as the true rock and the true tablet of stone (1 Cor 10:4; Rev 2:17). When the chosen people became faithless, as they had become in the wilderness, Satan was in a position to attack Jesus, who was the incarnate Word that had ben symbolized by the tablets of stone. Jesus had to overcome these circumstances. Satan know well that Jesus had come into the wilderness to restore the rock, so Satan tempted Jesus to change the rock to bread, because Jesus was as hungry as the faithless Israelites had been at the time of Moses. If Jesus had become faithless and had abandoned his purpose of restoring the stone, choosing instead to command the stone to become bread in order to fill his hungry stomach, then Satan would have succeeded in preventing the Messiah from accomplishing his purpose. By keeping Jesus under his sovereignty, Satan would have had possession of the stone forever. Jesus answer to this temptation was, "'..."Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God"'" (Mt 4:4). This means that even though man's physical body can live by eating bread, his life would not be complete. Man can become whole only if, in addition, he lives by the bread of life, that is through Christ, who is God's Word made flesh (Jn 6:35,51). Jesus' answer to Satan's first temptation means that even if he were then at the point of starvation, bread for the physical body is not the real issue. Jesus had to triumph over Satan's temptation and become the living bread of God's Word, the bread capable of giving life to all mankind. Through his triumph over the first temptation, Jesus met the condition for again establishing himself as the true incarnation of the stones which had been lost to Satan in the wilderness because of the faithlessness of the chosen people. In other words, by overcoming this temptation (from the position of John the Baptist), Jesus symbolically restored the position of the Messiah, the model of the perfect person. Through doing this, Jesus established the foundation for restoring God's First Blessing to man, the first step toward accomplishing God's Purpose for the Creation. The second temptation In the second temptation, Satan set Jesus on the pinnacle of the temple and said, "...'If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down...'" (Mt 4:6). Jesus referred to himself as a temple (Jn 2:19- 21) and believers are also called temples of God (1 Cor 3:16). 1 Corinthians 12:27 tells us that believers are members of the body of Christ. Therefore, we can understand that Jesus is the main temple and the believers are the branch temples, Satan's setting Jesus on the pinnacle of the temple means that, as a result of Jesus' triumph over the first temptation, Satan had to recognize Jesus' authority as the master of the temple. Satan's urging Jesus to throw himself down from the top of the temple was not to test Jesus' ability to perform miracles, but was to tempt him to give up his position as master of the temple, to throw himself down and be as a fallen man, thus putting an end to his restoring people as branch temples. Just as Satan dominated the world as its false master after causing Adam's fall (2 Cor 4:4; Jn 12:31), Satan would have become the master of the temple in place of Jesus, if Jesus (the Second Adam) had succumbed to this temptation. At this point, Jesus said, "'..."You shall not tempt the Lord your God"'" (Mt 4:7). Satan is a fallen angel; a true human being is to have dominion over the angels. Therefore, a fallen angel was naturally supposed to be under Jesus' dominion. Although Satan may temporarily control the world as its false master, his attempt to stand in the position of the lord of the temple was a non-Principle act. Satan, a fallen angel, should not have tried to tempt God. Yet, he did not by tempting Jesus, for when Jesus had triumphed over the first temptation, he had restored his position as a true person and individual, and thus was the true temple and body of God. Jesus' answer was a scolding to Satan for his non-Principle act, and it meant that Satan should leave him and stop tempting God's representative and true son. Jesus was the main temple and the True Father of mankind. By overcoming the second temptation, he established the condition that would enable him to restore believers as branch temples, that is, as his children. Through overcoming this temptation, Jesus established the foundation for restoring God's Second Blessing to man, the second step toward fulfilling God's Purpose for the Creation. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-04-91 07:33:00 From Terry Blount To C. Spurgeon Subject Exegetical Help WanWa CS> I'm a Christian. That is my religion. CS> I was saved reading The Bible only. I didn't even have someone CS> talking to me about Christ. How refreshing to find a Christian who doesn't believe in the rapture or the trinity. Since neither of these words are mentioned in the Bible there is no way you could have been polluted by these concepts that came about in the later developments of Christianity. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-04-91 07:40:00 From Terry Blount To Roger Hepworth Subject Moderator RH> TB> I forgot but I did hear he went to school and I have not RH> noticed the TB> rules getting posted for several months now. RH> Since there doesn't se TB> to be one maybe we should have an RH> election and choose from among the TB> folks who have been here RH> for a long time. But since that narrows th TB> choices down RH> to me, Tim, and Ralph that may not be the best idea. lets see your campaign slogan. "The moon is the son." ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-04-91 07:42:00 From Terry Blount To Vail Rodney Subject Resurrection 1/ VR> TB> MAR 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and VR> they TB> were talking with Jesus. VR> Notice the word "appeared" in Mark 9:4. This was a vision of the VR> future when VR> Christ has returned and resurrected Elias and Moses. VR> Notice also Mark 9:1. "there be some of them that stand here, VR> which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the Kingdom VR> of God come with power." Judging by Peter's reaction this was not a vision of things to come, it was a happening at that time. LUK 9:33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said. LUK 9:34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. LUK 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. I think you can find other references about what happens to people after they die : ECC 9:3 This [is] an evil among all [things] that are done under the sun, that [there is] one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness [is] in their heart while they live, and after that [they go] to the dead. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Uncious people don't have madness in their heart ? 'Madness' only exists in a state of 'consciousness'. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-04-91 16:21:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant RC> Not in this particular case. Remember that there are two basic RC> types of covenant: unilateral, or one-sided; and, bi-lateral, or RC> mutually beneficial. RC> God's covenant with man is of the first kind. God has RC> everything and provides RC> it; man has nothing but himself, which he gives to his Lord. RC> The only conditionfor man is to give himself. In return, God RC> provides restoration of all that was RC> his to begin with, and much more; similar to what King David did RC> with Mephiboshbecause of his covenant with his father, Jonathan. First I don't believe there is any such thing as a one sided covenant. Sure some covenants give one party an advantage such as a parent may make with their child to pay for their education if the child will only study and make good of the opportunity. However the parent or God has something to gain. I God's case it is man's behavior that God wants to modify. My point is that any covenant man has made with God always requires man to 'KEEP' his part. In other words man has something to fulfill. Get it ? Keep <-> Fulfill DEU 29:9 Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do. ^^^^^^^^^^^ Clearly, to me, God's covenant's have not been one sided at all. A one sided covenant would not have any responsibility for man and man could not break such a covenant. But is this the case ? : DEU 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go [to be] among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ RC> Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: RC> and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. RC> And, contrary to the teachings of Moon, Jesus came into the RC> world to give his life: Let me just ask you.... If you had been there and everyone would have 'chickened' out and refused to drive the nails into Jesus hands, would you have done it ? Since you know that Jesus was indeed the Christ there in no doubt in my mind that you could never have done anything to harm him. I certainly would not have. Why do you insist on maintaining the idea that restoration requires suffering of the innocent ? Aren't the wicked the ones that should be reformed ? Do you know that Jesus said : MAT 9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Rev. Moon teaches that Jesus death was not the victory, his victory was his resurrection. And he is right to say that if Jesus had established the true family of God that Adam failed to establish, we would need no second coming. I just wonder if you can see that a spiritual AND physical victory is a greater victory than a spiritual victory alone. Jesus Christ had the power to father sinless children. If he had been supported and given the opportunity to raise up a woman to become the bride of Christ physical salvation would have been a reality at that time. This is not rocket science chemistry. A simple idea that is true and easy to understand. Adam and Eve brought sin into the world. Christ and his Bride will bring purity and true love into the world. True love and impure love cannot coexist. Which do you think is the most powerful love ...pure love or impure love. REV 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-04-91 17:14:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant 3 > I know it is probably impossible for you to believe me but for the > record I want you to know that Rev. Moon is teaching what Jesus told > him. In other words, Rev. Moon didn't come up with the idea that > Christ should be a parent simply because he though Christ was the most > qualified person in history to be a father and husband. Rev. Moon got > the idea that Jesus should have established a family because that is > what Jesus told him. RC> I don't believe that, and also, the bible does not support the RC> concepts Moon presents. I disagree. I find more support for Rev. Moon's teachings than the ones I propounded by fundamental christians. RC> Let me ask you a question in return: Why do you oppose the idea RC> that God prepared a sacrifice offering in the body of Jesus so RC> that all men could be saved? Because it is a better idea to stop procreating children of sin that are in need of salvation. Christ had that power. If I can understand that it is a better idea to bring sinless children into the world than to try to fix each child that is born of fallen parents then surely God could comprehend such an idea and has most likely thought of it long before I was born. Again I ask you : How about Satan ? Would Satan care one way or the other if Christ married and fathered 10 or 15 sinless children like himself ? RC> There are two ways of looking at it. He could have had children RC> while on earth and let's say that they would have become sinless RC> messiah's. Could they have sinned? Sure they could have sinned. Adam and Eve were sinless and they sinned. Jesus was tempted so he obviously could have sinned. The potential to sin doesn't "cause" one to sin. But the main point you are overlooking is that if you had a father such as Jesus Christ to guide and raise you, you would grow up knowing true love. A person who had such parental support would not be as easily tempted to taste impure love. You also forget that the only parenting Adam and Eve had was that of a jealous angel who misguided them. How much better their chances to grow to perfection would have been had they been raised by True Parents ? RC> Now, God's way was for Jesus to offer himself, sinless, for the RC> sin of the whole world. That way, once one's sins are remitted, RC> one can receive the Holy Spirit of God, and become "God's RC> perfect and sinless child." Every time this new child RC> of God might sin, he can be cleansed. I'm sure you are aware of the fact that this 'cleansing' has never been sufficient to allow anyone to parent a sinless child ? Something is still there because no matter how devout our parents may have been, we still have to be born again... because we were not born right the first time. RC> Moon may have heard from a spirit that called itself Jesus, but RC> it wasn't the Word of God. Hummm, seems like I read about someone making the same mistake you have made : MAR 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. LUK 11:15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. On another subject... I would like to know what do you think the returning Jesus is supposed to do ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-04-91 17:52:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant 3 RC> > TB> What do you do with the scripture that says Jesus had the RC> power on > earth > to forgive sins? Clearly this contradicts RC> the necessity for > blood shed. RC> > RC> > RC> I guess it would seem to, but's that RC> > RC> not the case at all. Believers also have RC> > RC> the power to forgive sins on earth. RC> > RC> > Are you implying that the forgivness Jesus gave the woman at RC> the well > was no different than the forgivness she would have RC> had if I were > there RC> > and said "Your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more" ? RC> Am I implying what? When Jesus was alive he was the only one RC> with the authorityas God's spiritual High Priest, to forgive RC> sins. When he died, his authority went to his spiritual descendants I have a feeling you are about to tell me that you have the same power to forgive sins that Jesus had ? RC> It is only after you enter the covenant by being born RC> again of the spirit that you receive the authority. So you have the same power to forgive sins that Jesus has. RC> The over-simplification is that of Moon. I can't figure why you continue to make these kinds of remarks. Have I ever attacked your minister ? Do you think it is cute or that it will help me to see your viewpoint ? The first rule of success is to take action that is consistent with your goals. What is your goal for me ? Will jeering Rev. Moon help to achieve that goal ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-04-91 18:14:00 From Terry Blount To Dale Robertson Subject What you believe DR> D There is one problem with this statement.It did not happen DR> that way and as Quoted earlier in Isaiah 53 it was foretold how DR> it was to happen. You are basing theology on ifs,and,buts. The DR> people did not accept Christ as the Messiah,so you DR> are going to have to live if the truth of history and the DR> present beliefs of people. No, I'm basing my theology on the will of God : JOH 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Could anyone who was doing the will of God murder His son ? Could you have driven nails into someone who you knew was the true son of God ? DR> Jesus was not a father or a husband,so what is the point of this DR> theology. I agree with you that Jesus would have been the Best DR> father and husband the world has ever known,but it is not DR> Biblical or has any place in scripture. If you agree that Jesus would have been the best father and husband the world has ever known, don't you think God knew that too ? Do you think God looked forward to the day He could bless His son in marriage ? REV 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. REV 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. REV 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. TB> The time has come in the history of man to go PAST salvation and TB> forgiveness to RESTORATION and REDEMPTION. Please think about TB> purification and tell me how a God of PURE TRUE love can form a TB> reciprocal relationship with the impure hearts of fallen people. He TB> simply cannot. We therefore MUST purify ourselves. Pure love and TB> impure love cannot co-exist. Who should change ? God or us ? TB> It is true that your sins are forgiven. But are you ready to live TB> with an absolute standard of goodness and unselfishness ? I am TB> sure that such an high standard of purity will make me feel TB> judgement and the need for change. DR> It is said that Christ came to save the world not condemn. I am DR> glad that you have become the mouth piece of God. You have told DR> us what God will do and what he can't. I was teaching from my understanding of scripture. I think you evaded my questions. DR> Christ showed enormous DR> grace and mercy upon the sinful nature of people DR> who have accepted Christ(Christians). Over and over again he DR> teaches forgivenesto the sinful nature of man. There are DR> numerous examples that I could quote of the forgiving nature of DR> Christ,but there is not enough room to type. If you would, try to focus on any of those examples that indicate God is willing to compromise His standards or commandments and post them for future discussion. I suppose I would be happy to find out I have not committed as many sins as I think I have. DR> 1 Thes. 4:15-18 does not mention the word rapture,but plainly DR> gives the account that MOST Christians have given the name DR> rapture to. Verse 17: "then we who are alive,who are DR> left,shall be caught up together DR> with them (referring to the dead in Christ) in the clouds to DR> meet the Lord in the air;and so we shall always be with the DR> Lord" This is also before God will destroy DR> the Earth (2 Peter 3:) and build a new earth and have a new DR> Jerusalem. Why do you believe this is symbolic? It sounds pretty DR> plain and simple and God has the power,because he spoke this DR> world into existance. When Jesus prayed "Our Father who art in Heaven.." and did not mean that God lives in the sky. In the Bible Heaven and Clouds are symbolic for holiness and purity while Earth and Water is symbolic for fallen and corrupted. Let me give you a quiz so you may understand my view : Where was Satan cast down to ? hint Rev chapter 12 What is the symbology of the waters the whore sat upon in Rev 17:15 ? What is the symbology of the 'Cloud of witnesses' in Heb 12:1 ? In addition to the Bible, there are a lot of other questions we should consider. For example : What needs to be restored ? Man's physical location or his heart ? If moving away from the earth purified a person then NASA would have created lots of messiah's. JER 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? MegaMail -> Warning, Message Truncated! ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-04-91 22:50:00 From Terry Blount To John Fordenbacher Subject Jesus/GOD JF> You never seem to answer my questions, how come. No answers? You must mean I don't give you satisfactory answers... the ones you want to hear. I probably write more answers than anyone on this echo except Walter Copes. You pretended that a revelation was invalid unless there were witnesses. However when I showed you that here were no witnesses when Moses got the 10 commandments and when God spoke to Jesus you couldn't receive it. JF> Paul said that if anyone preaches a gospel other than what he JF> teaches, then it is false. Jesus Himself came to Paul and turned JF> him from killing Christians. We have witnesses that Paul JF> actually did see and speak to Jesus. JF> So now we see you preaching moon's theories and all I want to JF> know is where is his witnesses that he actually spoke to Christ JF> Jesus and was taught by Him, I have answered you by pointing out that God has historically delivered many many messages to people in a quiet way that only the person He was speaking to could hear. Have you ever heard God speak to you ? Did anyone witness the event ? JF> what he is preaching? moon is claiming to be the third christ, No, but I will proclaim that Rev. Moon is the return of Christ. How's that ? JF> so WHERE ARE THE WITNESSES? I don't want a list of converts, JF> 'cause that only proves human JF> weakness to follow anything sweet smelling rose that comes JF> along. Yeah, you spend several years of your life including the freezing weather of any northern USA Kmart parking lot with 'sweet smelling roses' for sale while being persecuted and jeered and we'll see how long your human weakness stands up to following something you don't understand. You couldn't do it ! JF> It's also an interesting fact that Christ Jesus didn't JF> write one single word of the Bible, yet all (*every one*) of the JF> false religions have some man writing the books they preach JF> from. Silly, silly, don't you know the New Testament received the same warm welcome before those books became canonized ? Have you studied any of the history of your religion at all ? JF> Either a "better" translation of the Bible, or "new" JF> insights into it or some completely "new" way to become gods. Are you describing the New Testament or the Divine Principle ? JF> You, unfortunatly, have been duped by a skillful actor, Or I really found God thought the teachings of Rev. Moon. JF> am sure, that you are *not* as secure in your "religion of moon" JF> as you would like us to believe. It also proves JF> to me that you are fighting the truth of the messages posted to JF> you and the Holy Spirit is convicting you for preaching a false JF> gospel. I suppose some things are easily 'proven' to you. You entered into discussion with me with the preconceived notion that I was 'duped' by Rev. Moon. You have not fairly listened to any of my messages with an open mind. I don't know what your goal is for me but I do my goal for you is that you can understand we are living in the last days and there are opportunities available right now that have never before been available in history. I'm really sorry that I do not have the ability to teach you what I know in a way you can receive it. But in the end you will remember that I did try. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-04-91 23:24:00 From Terry Blount To John Fordenbacher Subject The "virgin" Mary JF> Did you go to school to be able to turn things around like you JF> do? No, I didn't know there was a school that taught that course ? Anyway, I simply posted something about a hot issue an it was from a book written by Dr. Weatherhead called "The Christian Agnstic" (1965) I don't really care to defend his position although it does sound like the most reasonable explanation for the fact that no one in the New Testament makes any deal about Jesus being born from a virgin. It simply appears to me that John, Paul, Luke, and Mark didn't know about the miraculous birth of Jesus that Christians made as a center or their faith several centuries later. As for your mention about Jesus being born in sin if his mother was not a virgin, I wonder if you believe Mary was sinless ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-04-91 23:41:00 From Terry Blount To Tom Grelinger Subject The virgin Mary TG> You are trying to make an argument from silence. Well at least you got to blow off some steam. I just can't figure out why this virgin stuff is so important to you since it was not important to people such Paul, John, Mark and Luke who were giving accounts of Jesus and his ministry ? You have written and said more about it in one line of one message than they did in the whole Bible. Did they forget to write that their master, lord and God was born of a virgin or did they not want anyone to know ? Do you think Mary was sinless ? Does the loss of one's virginity necessarily make them or their child sinful ? What if one parent was a virgin and the other... well they wouldn't have any children would they? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-04-91 23:41:00 From Terry Blount To ALL Subject JESUS.4 The third temptation In the third temptation, Satan led Jesus to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. Then he said, "...'All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me'" (Mt 4:9). Of course, in reality, there is no mountain where all the kingdoms of the world can be seen. Then, what does Satan's leading Jesus to this very high mountain mean? Because of his fall, Adam had lost his authority as lord of the Creation and had come to be dominated by Satan; so Satan had naturally become the ruler of the Creation in place of Adam (Rom 8:20). God sent Jesus to be the perfected Adam and, thus, the lord of the Creation (God put all things in subjection under Christ (1 Cor 15:27). Satan knew this, and since Jesus had been victorious in the first and second temptations, Satan had to place Jesus in the position of lord of the Creation. This was the significance of Jesus' being led to the mountain where all the kingdoms of the world and their glory can be seen. Then, Satan tempted Jesus by offering to let Jesus be lord of the Creation if Jesus would yield to him (Satan). Satan wanted the second Adam to yield to him as the first Adam had done in the Garden of Eden. Jesus replied, "'..."You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve"'" (Mt 4:10). Angels were created to be ministering spirits (Heb 1:14), to worship and serve God. Jesus' answer recalls this principle that Satan, a fallen angel should worship and serve God. Naturally, in accordance with this principle, Satan should also worship and serve Jesus, for Jesus was the temple of God. By overcoming the first two temptations, Jesus had established the foundation that would enable him to restore to man God's First and Second Blessings. On this foundation he also had to restore to man God's Third Blessing, man's dominion over the Creation. Although Jesus might have gained all of the kingdoms of the world and their glory if he had yielded to Satan, his purpose as the Messiah would not have been fulfilled. Jesus answered that although Satan was offering him sovereignty over the Creation, he would not fall down and worship Satan, for he (Jesus) was the temple of God. Jesus' responses were based on The Principle, and thus he was victorious. By overcoming the third temptation, Jesus was able to meet the conditions for restoring man's dominion over the Creation. In other words, he established the foundation for restoring to man God's Third Blessing. Thus, through enduring the forty-day fast and overcoming Satan's three temptations, Jesus, in place of John the Baptist, established the Foundation of Faith. Jesus' forty days of fasting and praying for the Foundation of Faith and his triumph over Satan's temptations established Jesus as the central person and Abel for the nation Foundation of Substance. Consequently, if the people of Israel, who were in the Cain position, had believed, served, and obeyed Jesus, who was in the Abel position substituting for John the Baptist, the nation Foundation of Substance would have been established. This Foundation of Substance and the Foundation of Faith together would have constituted the Foundation for the Messiah, and that would have enabled Jesus to shift from the position of John the Baptist to the Messiah's position. If Jesus had been able to secure this victorious foundation on earth, then he would have been able to give total rebirth to mankind and he would have been able to completely fulfill God's Purpose for the Creation. Therefore, Jesus revealed secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven in his speaking and testified to himself through the performance of miracles--all to make his people believe in him and obey him (Jn 10:38). Because it concerned the Foundation of Substance for the national Foundation for the Messiah, it was very important for the leaders of Judaism and the people to serve Jesus and follow his will, since he was in the Abel position. However, the leaders of the people, such as the priests, the Levites, and the scribes, were in the front ranks of those who became faithless toward Jesus. The general populace also fell into faithlessness and even began to slander Jesus. And even from the early stages of Jesus' ministry, the Pharisees declared that he was a sinner (Jn 9:16,24), though he was actually without fault. On several occasions the people took up stones to throw at Jesus, even though he was teaching them the truth (Jn 8:59; 10:31). Jesus even had to take refuge for some time, because of the people's conspiracies to kill him (Jn 7:1; 8:40). Meanwhile, Satan, who had been defeated in the temptation, had departed from Jesus "until an opportune time" (Lk 4:13). Satan's departure from Jesus until an opportune time implies that Satan did not leave Jesus completely and would be able to come before Jesus again. Since Jesus had overcome Satan's tests, Satan could no longer attack him directly; so Satan had to try to invade through the people, and he centered on the leaders who had fallen into faithlessness, finally focusing his efforts on Judas Iscariot. 1 Corinthians 2:8 says, "None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." The people's attitude toward Jesus went beyond simple ignorance about him. They developed a strong feeling of disbelief and distrust toward him, to the point where they feared him and wanted to be rid of him, and they crucified him. Because of this faithlessness of the people, the Foundation of Substance was not established. Accordingly, the Foundation for the Messiah was not established in the second course of the world-wide restoration of Canaan. Naturally, the second course of the world-wide restoration of Canaan also failed. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-05-91 21:34:00 From Terry Blount To Doug Palmer Subject ?? DP> So, there is but one 'true God', Jesus is not that God--so Jesus DP> must be less than 'true God', right? If there is but one 'true' DP> God, and that God is Jehovah--then either Jesus is Jehovah, or DP> He is 'untrue.' Would you say then that He is an DP> 'untrue' god? Is that more acceptable than 'false'? I know Carla made a blunder when she said that there were several gods and listed Jesus with money, sex, and Satan but I don't think her writing style or unclarity would be proof that she loves Jesus any less than any of us. Your underlying point seems to be that you love Jesus more that her because you believe he is the one true God, Jehovah that created the universe. Do you think Jesus is God the Father ? Probably you have a distinction between Jesus and God the Father in your faith. Should Carla criticise you for having a separate classification, or hint that you think Jesus is an untrue or false figure in your scheme of the Godhead ? When you maintain there is one God and then go on to talk about God the father + God the Son + God the Holy Spirit it does appear to her ( and many other people who love God ) that you are flirting with polytheism. Is this difficult to understand ? I think she is as worried about you forgetting the first commandment as you are about her not proper comprehending the Godhead and giving the measure of devotion you feel is required to all positions/parties. MAT 5:9 Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-05-91 21:34:00 From Terry Blount To ALL Subject JESUS.5 Results of John's failure Because of the faithlessness of John the Baptist, the first course of the world-wide restoration of Canaan had ended in failure. Next, Jesus, himself, had tried to establish the Foundation for the Messiah. However, because the people did not follow him. and especially because his disciples became faithless, the second course of the world-wide restoration of Canaan also failed. Therefore, Jesus had to go the way of the cross. In John 3:14, Jesus says, "'And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up....'" When the people with Moses were bitten by fiery serpents and began to die, God directed Moses to raise up a bronze serpent in order to provide a way for the people's salvation. In the same way, when the people at Jesus' time became faithless, God then had to ask Jesus to go the way of the cross. What is the meaning of the cross? As was already explained in "The Purpose of the Messiah," Jesus' messianic purpose was to complete the dispensation for salvation, that is, to fulfill the Purpose of the Creation. Man was created with a physical self and a spirit self, and man fell both physically and spiritually. Thus the salvation should also be for both the physical and the spiritual aspects of man. When we say that we absolutely believe in Jesus and we obey Jesus this means that we are fulfilling the ideal of becoming one body with him. Jesus spoke of this when he compared himself to a vine and the believers to branches (Jn 15:5), and when he said, "'In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you'" (Jn 14:20). Unfortunately, the people did not believe in Jesus and did not become one with him. As a result, God had to allow Satan to take the physical body of Jesus to indemnify mankind's sin of faithlessness. Thus Jesus died on the cross. Since Jesus is the root of life for all mankind, Satan's invasion of Jesus' physical body means that even saints who believe in Jesus and become one with him cannot avoid satanic invasion of their physical bodies (Rom 7:22,23). No matter how faithful believers may be, their bodies are still within the realm of Stan's invasion. Thus, they have to pray constantly (1 Thess 5:17), and their children still have Original Sin. Because of the crucifixion, mankind lost the physical body of the savior and thus lost its physical object of faith and could not receive physical salvation. Therefore, the third course of the world- wide restoration of Canaan could not be started as a substantial course on both the physical and the spiritual planes. Instead, this course of the world-wide restoration of Canaan was a spiritual one and was centered on the resurrected Jesus. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-06-91 07:54:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject IS JESUS ALSO MICHACH PM> TB> Since the growth of the spiritual body REQUIRES give and PM> take TB> action with a physical body, we find examples of PM> people who TB> died without reaching perfection retruning to PM> the earth to TB> work with/for Chirst: PM> PM> That is not the view I hold. phil Well, within a hundred years or so we both will know who is right on this one. If our spiritual body needs nothing from our physical body for growth then there is really no need to modify our behavior. Whatever we do would not be recorded in our spiritual body. Everyone will get a halo! ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-06-91 08:01:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject IS JESUS ALSO MICHACH PM> Calling the dead "[spirit persons]" suggests to me that you PM> don't really feel they are really dead at all... PM> PM> ...in which case a bodily resurrection PM> is not really that important. Correct. What man lost at the time of the fall was the pure true love of God. The most precious love. Love is life, without it we are dead. those who go into the spirit world with undeveloped love are dead. Satan's love is dead love. We can look at ourselves and check how much do I embody the love of God. The light that comes from God is pure, precious love, it is a skin touch relationship of love with pure God. Also one is able to communicate with God, you can talk to him and you can hear him talk to you. To be dead is to cut off from this relationship with God. When a man passes into the spirit, whatever level he was able to grow in heart to God at that time is the level of spirit world he will be at when he enters there. MAT 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-06-91 10:51:00 From Terry Blount To Tim Of_angle Subject James White TO> HS> Hey Hey, Jason flaming is not allowed on this echo either... TO> HS> For Mike Wallace TO> HS> Moderator TO> Neither is impersonating a moderator, Harvey. TO> For Mike Wallace Moderator (hey, if you can do it, anybody TO> can...) Give Harvey a break, there aren't any cults on his conference to moderate so he comes here for a little action once in a while. In other words, his heaven is kinda lonesome. ...However, it did look like he is ready to kinda 'muscle' in and run all the rats out of here. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-06-91 10:57:00 From Terry Blount To Doug Palmer Subject Moderator DP> Mike Wallace is listed as 1:103/136 and is listed on my NodeList DP> as '(DOWN)'. DP> I'll send some NetMail tonight to check on things. We may yet DP> require an election--though I sure hope not. Well, if it comes to an election, I nominate Jim Taylor if he is still around and will have the job. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-06-91 11:01:00 From Terry Blount To Harvey Smith<314-227-6885 Subject Open Bible Rules 2 HS> Thanks for reposting the rules. MIke's system is temporarily HS> down, and hence HS> i appreciate that you have reposted the rules of the echo.. I HS> am in the process of contacting him and getting some feedback as HS> to how to proceed with the echo... I was not the one who reposted the rules. But your message came to me anyway. If fidonet does indeed require a moderator to keep this echo on the backbone, I suggest we elect one. Mike has not been around for several months. I don't suppose you want to vote for me ? Here is my campaign slogan : The Moon is the Son ! ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-06-91 11:07:00 From Terry Blount To Vail Rodney Subject Resurrection VR> I fail to see your point, unless you are saying that because VR> Peter wanted to make three tabernacles, that this somehow means VR> Moses and Elias are alive. VR> Visions and apparitions only 'seem' real. I fail to see any point in several authors of different books of the New Testament mentioning this if it were not an event that actually took place. You seem to be saying that Moses and Elias were not really talking to Jesus ? You say their experience 'only seemed to be real'. It was so real they wanted to build a tabernacle for Moses and Elias. VR> If your thoughts perish, you can't think. You are dead. You are VR> asleep in the grave, awaiting a resurrection. If you can't VR> think, there is no awareness VR> of time. Therefore, when a person dies, the next thought they VR> will experience or be aware VR> of will be when they are brought out of their graves. Are you afraid of ghost ? What is the reason you seek to support your belief that people are not conscious in the spiritual world after they die ? Would it have a devastating effect on your theology if you found out that people do remain conscious after death ? I certainly don't think it would slow down the JW faith if they dropped this idea. But I do realize that I'm on the outside looking in. I realize you may believe that all spiritual interaction between man and the spiritual world is between man and angels. Are only evil angels allowed to communicate/tempt/deceive man, or can good angels also interact with humans in a way to support God's providence for restoration ? I think your founder had a revelation when your faith was founded. Did he have contact with the spiritual world ? I simply don't know, but I do the Good Book is filled with references to the 'angel of the Lord' and most all of the book of Daniel and Revelation was the result of man's interaction with a spiritual being. If you are interested in my opinion, I believe that your founder realize that at least 90% of the people who have lived were not so interested in promoting a godly way of life. When these less than ideal people died and went into the spiritual world, they remained selfish. Now if you communicate with spiritual world the chances of finding one of the few folks like Moses and Jesus or any saint, out of the estimated 25 billion people who have once lived on earth, are not too good. In light of the fact the most probably experience and guidance you would gain from interaction with spirits of departed people would not be helpful, it is better to leave them alone. In other words you are in the subject position and they must work through you if they want to be restored. If you started taking advice from the common spiritual being you most likely would start doing whatever they did while they were on earth and that would be drinking and fornicating. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-06-91 20:25:00 From Terry Blount To John Fordenbacher Subject Covenant 3 JF> Jesus has already paid the price for sin, for anyone that JF> accepts him. So there isn't any reason for Christians to JF> "forgive sins". I suppose you are right but I still find it easier to repent for sins that that I have already committed than the ones I am going to commit. JF> They are already JF> forgiven. It is our job to spread the Gospel of Christ Jesus. JF> Once a person accepts Him, then their sins are forgiven. You mean if I accept Jesus my future sins are forgiven ? Is there any need for purification and holiness and righteousness ? What about obeying the commandments and getting the rewards to eat from the tree of life and... MAT 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. JF> So in a way, YES, we have the power to forgive sin, by bringing JF> a person to Christ. This is not the same power that Christ Jesus JF> had to forgive sin, since only GOD can forgive an offence JF> against Himself (Which HE did through Jesus's sacrifice). What comes after forgiveness ? Is forgivness the final goal ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-06-91 20:33:00 From Terry Blount To John Fordenbacher Subject Jesus/GOD JF> But Terry, moon is preaching a gospel that is different JF> than the Gospel that Paul teaches, I simply don't find that true. But I do understand you have your own interpretation of what St Paul taught just as the Jewish leaders had their concepts of the Old Testament teachings. They had difficult to the point they said the same thing you are saying : MAR 1:27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine [is] this? MAR 11:28 And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things? LUK 20:2 And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority? Finally Jesus got tired of this line of questioning everywhere he went and he replied : LUK 20:8 And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things. JF> if we are to believe *any* of what moon preaches, we must JF> have proof beyond any doubt that it was Jesus that instructed JF> moon. First, I want to remind you that no one witnessed to God's words to Jesus but God gave many revelations (and showed people who sincerely asked) about His son. Two things I would suggest you consider : Amos 3:7, which says, "'Surely the Lord God does nothing, without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets.'" MAT 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: LUK 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. Now if you simply reply "I have already found." you do not understand the meaning of my message. I think you are looking for external proof ( of disproof ) about the teaching of Rev. Moon, but you must look inside yourself to find that answer. All I can do is honestly assure you that I have tested the Divine Principle under the most difficult situations for over 15 years and God had showed me Rev. Moon is a man of God. Since he is a man of God we have no choice but to listen to him if we want to mature in our spiritual growth. What exactly do you think Rev. Moon is telling his followers ? Do you want me to post or send you some of his speeches ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-06-91 20:59:00 From Terry Blount To John Fordenbacher Subject The "virgin" Mary JF> No, the Bible doesn't say she was. She certinly is now, JF> however. Too bad she isn't alive. We could use a few more people like Jesus today. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-07-91 07:34:00 From Terry Blount To Chris Stamper Subject MOSES.6 CS> In NO place in Scripture is it hinted that the Godhead or any CS> member is female. Try Gen 1:27 ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-07-91 19:16:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant RC> What you fail to see about this behavior-modification of God's RC> is that he tried exactly that for hundreds of years with the RC> Jews and their Law. After RC> he proved beyond a reasonable doubt that no man could refrain RC> from sin, he provided the final spirit-modification plan. So God is experimenting as He goes along.... I would guess you get alone well with the evolutionists ? RC> You are being hypothetical about real events. What is your RC> point? In actual fact, God's plan worked, Satan believed he RC> needed to put Jesus to death, and by so doing God's plan of RC> salvation for all men went into effect. On the contrary... God's will was that the people believe in Jesus. (John 6:29) They did not do the will of God they did the will of Satan and MURDERED Jesus because no one that believed Jesus was the Christ could possibly have murdered him. RC> > Why do you insist on maintaining the idea that restoration RC> requires > suffering of the innocent? RC> Since I have never maintained that, why do you propose it? Was Jesus guilty of something ? Did he suffer ? This idea that an innocent man must suffer in order for you and I to be restored is most certainly YOUR idea. NOT mine ! ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-07-91 19:24:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant RC> > And he is right to say that if Jesus had established RC> > the true family of God that Adam failed to establish, we would RC> need no > second coming. RC> Or, he is very wrong. RC> As a result of Jesus doing what you and Moon propose, all RC> mankind would have RC> been condemned to the eternal death of hell (the sinless life of RC> Jesus and his children would have been testimony against the RC> rest of the world). How could a loving God condemn the rest of RC> mankind to the death of Hell for eternity? Do you really think Jesus would have taught his followers that it is alright for me to marry... but you can't. Once Jesus and his Bride were established as True Parents then they would have look forward to blessing their followers (adopted children) in holy marriage. This is why those who come to the marriage of the Lamb will be blessed. Your children wouldn't need to be reborn if they were born right the first time. Why are you insisting on 'patching' over sin when you can remove it through holy matrimony ? I think you must not comprehend this teaching ? RC> The only ones who would be saved would be those RC> who were without sin -- Jesus and his children. See here ! This is what I'm telling you... you don't understand that the reason children are born with sin is because they are born of fornication. See John 8:44. The only solution is for you and me and our spouses to get the blessing of marriage from God. I think you would agree if Christ blesses a couple in marriage it would be ok with God. Can you understand the problem Satan would have in claiming the children from a blessed marriage belonged to him ? RC> Ezekiel says RC> that the soul that sins shall surely die. This is the death of RC> hell for eternity for those who don't RC> receive the forgiveness of Jesus. Forgiveness is a 'fix' for an existing problem. The solution is to eliminate the problem then you don't need the forgiveness fix. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-07-91 19:40:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject Covenant PM> TB> What does God gain through a covenant He makes with man ? PM> . PM> Vindication. (Providing man is smart enough to follow...) Why does God need this proof ? PM> . PM> TB> What are God's goals ? PM> . PM> To destroy sin without destroying mankind in the process. How can He destroy sin ? You keep talking about forgiveness but finally you have gotten around to the subject I have been trying to get folks to think about for the past two years I have been pecking away at my keyboard. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-07-91 19:44:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant 3 RC> Evidently, God did understand that, and much better than you RC> present it. He understood it so well that he knew the only RC> people who could be saved, according to his own word, were those RC> who were of the immediate family of Jesus. Since that did RC> nothing for all the other millions of people of the world, he RC> did not implement that plan. You should think about what you are saying. You do know that God worked through Marry to bring a sinless child into the world. Now even if you think Marry was sinless that is even better because then you can get beyond that virgin birth myth and realize that at some point God worked through a living human couple... Mary's mother AND father to bring a sinless woman into the world.... either way you surely know that if God wanted to give you and your wife a sinless child it would not be beyond the limits of HIS ALMIGHTY POWER. If Christ blessed you and your wife in holy matrimony I would conclude that you probably would be in a position to parent sinless children.... at least in a position where the probability was greater than someone who had not received the blessing of such a marriage. RC> 1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the RC> spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets RC> are gone out into the world. Do you have any idea what percentage of the worlds population understands Jesus was Christ ? I'm not suggesting you through caution to the wind. But since you are among the limited few who has found that Jesus was the Christ and not a false prophet you have a much better chance to recognize a man of God who is living in your own lifetime... if only you can refrain from prejudging. Maybe I should concentrate my efforts on people who place little or no value in spiritual things and leave you alone? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-07-91 20:22:00 From Terry Blount To Walter Copes Subject HE IS YOURS ! Walter... Walter... did you hear this ? I'll let you straighten this poor kid out.... DR> Man is born with the sin nature. Salvation does not take DR> the sin nature away,so There is no way of reaching a pure love DR> without sin. We can try our best though to try and reach that DR> goal though. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-07-91 20:02:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Reynolds Subject Jesus/god PR> Did Jesus die on the cross for the sins of man? Yes, but since Jesus had the power on earth to forgive sins the greater victory would have been gained if he had been supported and established an ideal family and fathered sinless children who could have grown up to become like him. PR> Do good works earn a person salvation or are they a response to PR> the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ? Good works and salvation can not be separated. Salvation is the same as restoration and the only way you can be restored it to fulfill your responsibility to obey the commandments and purify your heart. PSA 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-07-91 20:09:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject Jesus/GOD PM> PM>> JF>> Only GOD can forgive sins, but Jesus also forgave PM> sins. . PM> Terry, wonder what Rafae'l would say to this? phil Maybe there is a contradiction ? MAR 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-07-91 20:14:00 From Terry Blount To Dale Robertson Subject What you believe TB> Could anyone who was doing the will of God murder His son ? TB> Could you have driven nails into someone who you knew was the TB> true son of God ? DR> The answer is Yes! I hope you don't find Christ then. You will have to kill me first ! DR> God used the people to supply the Blood Atonement... Yeah, what kind of people : ACS 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye. ACS 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Is this the club you want to belong to ? NOT I !!!!!!! ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-07-91 20:25:00 From Terry Blount To Dale Robertson Subject What you believe DR> I did not know God has standards for salvation Now we know why the Holy Spirit has guided you to this conference : MAT 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. REV 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. PSA 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation. Need more ? MAR 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-09-91 10:31:00 From Terry Blount To Mike Wallace Subject HARVY SMITH Mike, I hope you get this message. Did you know that this guy named Harvy Smith from the cult watch echo is telling users to send him net mail if they have any problems and need to contact the moderator ? Can I post the rules too ...and tell users to send me net mail if they need to discuss policies of this echo. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-09-91 10:49:00 From Terry Blount To Harvey Smith<314-227-6885 Subject Open Bible Rules 2 HS> Mike is alive and well and around. He has appointed me as his HS> co moderator, so please take any further info on the echo to net HS> mail. I wonder why Mike can't tell us this. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-09-91 11:22:00 From Terry Blount To Lonnie Hortick Subject The Virgin Mary LH> In other words...you don't believe that Jesus is God, right? Right. Only parents can manifest God on earth because the image of God is Male and Female. Did you read page 1 of your manual ? See Gen 1:27. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-09-91 17:14:00 From Terry Blount To John Fordenbacher Subject Jesus/GOD JF> > JF> The Gospel Paul was preaching was Christ Jesus and Christ JF> > JF> crusified. moon says Jesus died for nothing, failed in JF> his > JF> mission to earth. JF> > TB>I don't know where you are getting your information but it is simply > incorrect. Read this, it is directly from the Divine Principle : JF> I must be remembering your messages wrong. JF> However, moon does not profess that salvation is complete in JF> Christ Jesus. He say only some of salvation was accomplished, JF> and that is not what Paul teaches. Paul clearly knew salvation was not completed because he said we were groaning within ourselves waiting for the redemption of our bodies. I can't understand why you think believers are without sin. It does not make someone inconsistent with Paul to recognize this. If he had even the slightest notion that a person was perfected once they accepted Christ he would never have written all those letters to the various churches and visited them to preach. ROM 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. JF> > Paul also understands and says the same thing Rev. Moon JF> teaches : > JF> > The Apostle Paul testified that "none of the rulers of this JF> age > understood this; for if they had, they would not have JF> crucified the > Lord of glory" (1 Cor 2:8). JF> That is correct, but it has nothing to do with anything moon JF> has to say. the "rulers of this age" is satan. If he would have JF> know that he was going to be defeated by Jesus's death and JF> resurection, he would have doen everything JF> in his power to keep Jesus alive. Your interpretation is incorrect and you clearly aren't thinking about what you are saying. Who would be the loser if Jesus had celebrated the long awaited marriage of the Lamb and brought more sinless children into the world ? Clearly anyone who was afraid of True Love would find this most disturbing. Truth and True Love are the only weapons that can defeat Satan. Surely Jesus' children and those of his faithful followers would find false satanic love less appealing. How could Satan continue to dominate such people who knew the reality of true love ? JF> > JF> I hope what I wrote above will explain a little JF> > JF> better why we need witnesses and why GOD Himself would JF> have > JF> provided witnesses to moon's gospel. JF> > JF> > Would you believe me if I told you a man named Mr. Eu and JF> another man > name Won Pil Kim witnessed some of those JF> revelations and took notes ? > I don't think your preconceived JF> convictions would be overturned if you > read their JF> testimonies. You would only seek to discredit them... > JF> wouldn't you ? No, I would drop this message thread right JF> there. The questions are more for you than for me. I haven't JF> accepted moon as christ, so I really don't need proof that he JF> is, I would think that after reading my messages it would put JF> just a little bit of doubt in your mind and you would seek out JF> the answers. You don't think that fund raising in the freezing Kmart parking lot of Pennsylvania for 3 years while being persecuted and jeered by people who had less respect for my faith than you was enough for this Alabama boy to question his belief's ? I simply cannot deny what God has revealed to me. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-09-91 17:36:00 From Terry Blount To John Fordenbacher Subject Sinless Children JF> Would it be so hard for you to put Christ Jesus to the test? JF> Get on your knees and with conviction ask Jesus into your heart. JF> Prove me wrong, prove that GOD's Word is false, prove salvation JF> isn't in Christ Jesus. You really have nothing JF> to loose but your Life, so give Jesus a chance to prove to you JF> that He is the Way. I don't believe you have read or understood any of my messages. I'm beginning to wonder if several different people are using your name ? 1. I do not believe God's word is false. It is your interpretation that I disagree with. 2. I agree that Jesus brought spiritual salvation. If Jesus had brought physical salvation there would be no need for a second coming AND you and your wife could parent sinless children. 3. I'm not her to prove you wrong. Don't be so insecure. I'm here to share my faith. If you are seeking to deepen you understanding of God then I can help. If you have something to share with me about your faith then do it. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-10-91 07:45:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject Covenant PM> TB> How can He destroy sin ? PM> PM> By providing a Saviour, for those who want to be saved, and PM> then in flaming fire, cleaning up the residual. So daddy is going to burn up the bad kids and save the good kids ? Sodom and Gomorrah is the pattern for restoration ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-10-91 07:49:00 From Terry Blount To Michael Jones Subject Homosexuality and th the MJ> I don't Know who you are but this Michael Jones is not gay and MJ> for the record am married with two teenage sons. You have the MJ> wrong person There must be two of you because I simply responded to a message one of you entered. I assure you I did not pull your name out of a hat. You may want to change your name by including your middle initial or something that will distinguish the two of you. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-10-91 07:53:00 From Terry Blount To Vail Rodney Subject Resurrection VR> TB>Would it have a devastating effect on your theology if you VR> TB> found out that people do remain conscious after death ? VR> It is not 'my' theology. It is God's. That's not right, it is MY theology that is God's ! VR> My founder is God. Mine too ! VR> TB> that at least 90% of the people who have lived were not so VR> interested VR> TB> in promoting a godly way of life. When these less than VR> ideal people died VR> TB> and went into the spiritual world, they remained selfish. VR> They did not go into a spiritual world. They are dead. It is a VR> little difficult to be selfish when you are dead. You simply don't understand the Biblical concept of life and death. Here let me help... In Luke 9:60 we read that to the disciple who wanted to go home for his father's funeral, Jesus said, "'... Leave the dead to bury their own dead ...'". In these words of Jesus we find two different concepts of life and death. One concept is concerned with the physiological functioning of the physical body. The other is concerned with the people who would gather for the burial of the disciple's father. Why did Jesus indicate that those people who would attend the funeral were dead when they were actually alive? It was because, being under Satan's dominion, they were ignorant of the purpose of life and did not know God, who is the source of life. Revelation 3:1 says, "'... you have the name of being alive and you are dead.'" From this verse we can see that even though a person is physically alive, if he is under Satan's dominion, then from Jesus point of view he is dead. With this view of death, life would then mean to be within God's dominion, fulfilling the God-given purpose of life. In John 11:25, 26 Jesus said, "'... he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die.'" This tells us that whoever is connected to God's dominion through Christ is alive, regardless of whether his physical body is dead or alive and regardless of whether he is on earth or in the spirit world. The need for resurrection is a result of the death caused by the Fall. Let us consider which of the two kinds of death mentioned above is the death resulting from the fall of the first human ancestors. Man's physical body is destined to return to the earth after it becomes old and dies. If God had intended human beings to live eternally on earth in their physical bodies, there would have been no need to create the spirit world for spirit selves to go to. God created the spirit world before man fell; he did not create it after the Fall simply to provide a dwelling for the spirit selves of fallen people. It was always God's plan that man's physical self return to earth and that his spirit self dwell eternally with God in the spirit world (Eccles 12:7). Physical death is not the death caused by the Fall. When God told Adam and Eve that they would surely die on the day that they ate of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen 2:17), the death referred to was not physical death. We see in Genesis that Adam and Eve continued to be active and alive and to have children for more than nine hundred years after they ate the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Yet, if we are to believe God's Word, then in some sense they must have died the moment they broke God's commandment. God's love is the source of life. Therefore leaving the realm of God's love is entering into Satan's realm, where there is no true love, is death. In 1 John 3:14 we learn that "He who does not love abides in death". Also, Roman's 8:6 and Romans 6:23 respectively tell us, "To set the mind on the flesh [to be carnally minded] is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace," and "... the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus ...". So from the Bible's viewpoint, the death which was caused by the Fall is the state resulting from sin -- the state of being separated from God's love. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-12-91 20:53:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant RC> > So God is experimenting as He goes along.... RC> I didn't say that. But out of love he showed that his way of RC> substituting the death of Jesus was the best way. One way he RC> showed it was by allowing all men to do what it is that you RC> claim you try to do, that is, to be sinless RC> and to "rise RC> to God's standard." During this time there was not one single RC> individual who was able to do it (which, of course, means that RC> you'll never achieve this, either). But the fall of man was a result of Adam and Eve procreating outside the boundaries of God's blessing of marriage. If God blesses you in marriage through Christ then who do you think your children will belong to ? Why would they have original sin ? They wouldn't ! Your children would NOT need to be born again. Is there a greater gift you could give to your children ? Somehow I just don't think you have understood this truth. You keep fighting it as if you don't understand that a marriage blessed by God does not yield children who belong to the devil. RC> 2,000 years of Law and none were able to meet its terms. How do RC> you expect to? You can't. That's why the righteousness of RC> Jesus was made available to all. And so will the righteousness of Christ and his Bride at the second coming and the marriage supper of the lamb. That is the righteousness I am working from. NOT my own ! TB> I would guess you get alone well with the evolutionists ? RC> I assume that means you can't find fault with the substance of RC> what I said. I'm really not looking to find fault in your messages. I only commented that it is the common belief of some folks that God is experimenting as He goes along. Kinda like He doesn't have a plan He is sure of. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-12-91 21:01:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant TB > On the contrary... God's will was that the people believe in Jesus. > (John 6:29) RC> You're a little confused here. Some people were responsible for RC> the death of RC> Jesus, yes. But, many did "the will of God" and believed Jesus. I thought we were talking about the will of God ? : 2PE 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. ^^^ ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-12-91 21:02:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant TB > They did not do the will of God they did the will of Satan and MURDERED Jesus because no one that believed Jesus was the Christ could possibly have murdered him. RC> What about Herod? He knew that Jesus (a child) was to be "king RC> of the Jews" RC> and the messiah, and he ordered the death of all the children RC> who were young RC> enough to qualify from the time the wise men told him of the RC> birth. He was one who knew, and who tried to murder him. And you think that was the will of God ? You are overlooking so much. If God only wanted His son to be murdered then He could have sent Jesus at any time to any nation. There was no need to build up a nation of people who were expecting the messiah to come to them. God prepared the Jewish people to believe in and receive His son and PROTECT him from an evil world... not to kill His son. Do you think God is preparing Christianity to MURDER Christ at the second coming ? Why do you think God prepared the Jewish people for such a perverted task ? RC> > Was Jesus guilty of something ? Did he suffer ? RC> This substitutionary sacrifice is perfectly consistent with RC> scripture that you ignore. He suffered so that you wouldn't RC> have to. Yet you keep talking RC> about having perfect babies. You are calling unholy the blood RC> of Christ, with which you were sanctified. Not at all. I'm trying to get you to see that this most holy blood had the power to eliminate sin at that time through bringing sinless children into the world. It is your faith who can't believe that Christ had so much power as I'm telling you. Jesus' blood had the power to purify living flesh and do what Paul yearned for .... deliver us from the conflict within. Before you can ever become a true son or daughter of God, you must be adopted into the messiah's family. Christ did not have a wife so there was no family for fallen man to be adopted into. RC> Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the RC> dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through RC> the blood of the everlasticovenant, 21 Make you perfect in RC> every good work to do his will, working in you that RC> which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to RC> whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen. RC> Or do you choose to ignore this scripture, also? Are your children sinless ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-12-91 21:17:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant TB> > Do you really think Jesus would have taught his followers that it is alright for me to marry... but you can't. Once Jesus and his Bride > were established as True Parents then they would have look forward to blessing their followers (adopted children) in holy marriage. RC> Oh, so that's how it's supposed to work. Everybody would be RC *adopted*. YES ! YES ! YES ! Finally after all this effort you have finally understood something. Even if you can't believe it I still feel most victorious ! Hurray ! RC> I thought you RC> didn't like the idea of correcting a problem after the fact. And RC> you think that adopting sinful men is better than having a man RC> reborn sinless? Ok, let me try to take you to step two... The reality of sin is a fact, but rather than requiring all people to be reborn for the rest of eternity ( or however long you want to consider ) there will come a time when one generation will have the opportunity to be adopted into the linage of the True Parents ( Christ and his Bride ). Once adopted and given the blessing of marriage by Christ, that generation will be in a position to parent children from within the boundaries of God's blessing of marriage. Whatever Christ does is ok with God and if Christ gives the blessing of marriage to his adopted children, then their children will be in God's DIRECT lineage. Can you see the light ? TB > This is why those who come to the marriage of the Lamb will be blessed. Your children wouldn't need to be reborn if they were born right the first time. RC> True; but since that's impossible, why discuss it? See there you go underestimating the power of the blood of Christ. This is what I've been trying to tell you... the blood of Christ makes it possible to bring sinless children into the world. For the first time in history God will have grandchildren ! TB > Why are you insisting on 'patching' over sin when you can remove it through holy matrimony ? RC> Because it is obvious to any christian that you can't have RC> perfect children, whether your marriage is blessed or not. First, I did not say 'perfect children', I said 'sinless children' who are the only children that have the potential to grow to perfection. Second, Right ! Christians won't be blessed in marriage by the messiah and go on to have sinless children... When the messiah comes his followers won't be called christians, they will be called ' MOONIES' ! RC> Also, what do you think of the New Covenant? RC> What do you think of baptism and communion (the Lord's Supper)? The most important thing at this time in history is the opportunity to be blessed in marriage by the messiah. Seek him and get that blessing at all cost ! RC> > Forgiveness is a 'fix' for an existing problem. The solution RC> is to > eliminate the problem then you don't need the RC> forgiveness fix. And the misunderstanding you have is you think RC> that you can eliminate the problem. That is unscriptural. It is not unscriptural to believe the living blood of Christ has the power to bless a couple in marriage and give them the opportunity to bring sinless children into the world. Christ can do this. Scripture does not say he can't. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-12-91 21:41:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant RC> We don't know how God destroyed sin. Through the blood of Christ. This blood need not be spilled, it is powerful enough while still in his veins. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-12-91 21:42:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant RC> Terry, frankly I'm amazed at the scriptures you have to ignore RC> to believe the things that you do. I simply focus my attention of the prophecies that Christ would come as King of Kings while you focus your attention on the suffering predictions. RC> To what is Isaiah 53 referring? What about the entire book of RC> Hebrews? Not to mention the words of Jesus himself: RC> John 12:27. Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? RC> Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto RC> this hour. How do you ignore this one? First all prophecy is dual in nature. If you eat the fruit also implies you will live if you leave it alone. Second, I take Jesus mission is the context of the time frame it actually took place. This means that many things happened that changed the message from "Repent the kingdom of heaven is at hand" in the beginning of Jesus ministry to the promise of a second coming at the end. When John lost faith and Jesus lost the support from the foundation that God had prepared through the ministry of John the Baptist, Jesus had to start over and try to rebuild that foundation. Unfortunately he could not find the quality and quantity of supporters he needed to continue. This disaster was not preordained by God. It was a most unfortunate and terrible catastrophe. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-12-91 21:49:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant TB > How does one go about restoring a broken relationship like a person may have with a former spouse, friend or child. Can on party do all the 'fixing' ? RC> If one party is God, I would certainly think so. Wouldn't you? No, God does not want robots. He wants a relationship with His children just like you would. RC> How do you hear His voice? How do you follow Him? Since you RC> aren't in the New Covenant, you must then have an anointing of RC> prophet, priest, or king, assuming that the Old Covenant were RC> still in existence. You can ask the same questions of Jesus' apostles. How did they find Christ when everyone said Jesus was a phoney ? TB > What are your goals ? RC> My goal is to let the light that is within me be seen. Jesus RC> said that no one lights a light and sets it under a bushel RC> basket, so that its light is hidden, but rather "let your light RC> shine before men." This light is the life that is within me and RC> is expressed through my words, both written and spoken. When RC> these words find a good heart they bear good fruit. A most excellent goal... and mine too. RC> > Do you want to be the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven or do RC> you simply > want to hang out with John ? RC> I only want others to be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven RC> with me. I know that is true. I just find it awkward and difficult to know what I know and not be able to convey it to you. I'm sure you feel the same way. BTW. I don't know what is going to become of this conference if Harvy Smith has indeed muscled in to take over and turn O.B. into the new cult_watch echo which he also moderates. You may soon find out you belong to a cult too ? Anyway, I'm going to the USSR in a few weeks to give some lectures on the Divine Principle and I won't be around for about a month. We can continue till then ( unless I get the boot before then) and after I return I will be looking for another conference to discuss these most important topics. Merry Christmas to you and yours from Me and my family. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-12-91 22:03:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant 3 TB> If Christ blessed you and your wife in holy matrimony I would conclude that you probably would be in a position to parent sinless children.... at least in a position where the probability was greater than someone who had not received the blessing of such a marriage. RC> Then you conclude wrongly. The problem with the "sinless Mary" RC> idea is that the sin nature has something to do with the blood RC> of the father, and not the mother. Well, people also used to think that the mother was merely a vessel where the father deposited the baby to grow and mature, but now we know that both parents contribute to the gene pool. Maybe you will change this belief someday ? RC> It was important that Jesus have a father RC> who did not have the sin nature. Why ? Is it impossible for God to send His son as your child ? RC> metaphorically, of seeds quickened into life, i.e. RC> germinating, springing up, growing In other words, your spirit RC> and body both need to be "made alive." Having both the father RC> and mother blessed sounds nice, but it doesn't meet the terms RC> of the "covenant" which requires the shedding of blood for the RC> forgiveness of sin. Sorry, I believe Christs' blood was more powerful while inside his veins. I suppose this is the root of our disagreement. Where is Christs' blood most powerful ? In his body or on the ground ? In his body it could sustain his physical life and allow him to become the father of God's grand children. On the ground Satan is the one who can have grand children. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-12-91 22:16:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Exegetical Help WanWa RC> To know that I would be "caught up" to be with the Lord forever RC> would be pretty comforting, don't you think? I'm not going into the stratusphere. I'm going to stay here and work with Christ to fulfill his prayer : MAT 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ In the Bible 'waters' are fallen people and 'clouds' are purified people who have made themselves ready for the coming of Christ. Christ will indeed come on the clouds. He will come to the people who did exactly what he told them to do: MAR 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. LUK 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-12-91 22:24:00 From Terry Blount To Louise Thatcher Subject GAYS IN THE CHURCH LT> But, this doesn't mean that one group of people who are unable LT> to bond with someone of the (somewhat, but no longer perfect) LT> opposite sex should be forced to live a life of celibacy and LT> lonliness when his/her heterosexual counterparts are no more LT> perfect in sexual expression than he. Homosexuals have been LT> made the scapegoat for the sins and imperfections of the LT> entire church, no doubt about it. Well, you are convinced that homosexuality is ok, natural, or whatever, but as a chemist I know positively charged molecules or atoms do not bond with each other. You can count on that. Also negatively charged molecules and atoms likewise repel one another. I don't care to judge anyone ...especially for their sexual preferences. I really don't want to be judged for my fantasies either... so I'm going to keep them to myself. I have never understood how a sexual attraction between members of the same sex could exist. I suppose I have always looked on gay people as people who had a problem with the opposite sex and as a result they turned to their own to gain acceptance and respect or whatever... The few gay people I have know (most of them women) really seemed confused and frightened about the man woman relationships. The fall of man was a result of the first man and woman entering into a sexual relationship before they were mature enough to take responsibility for a love that was so powerful. They were not mature enough to control such love. Few people since then have found the power to control such love. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-12-91 22:43:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Jesus/God TB > Can a person't actions take them to Hell ? RC> The answer should be obvious. If you are to face hell only for RC> certain sins, which sins would they be? How fair is God if he RC> allows only some sins to be remitted? MAT 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. Don't you know there are 7 deadly sins that carry a little more weight ? Can you name 5 of them ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-12-91 22:46:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Jesus/God RC> > RC Since it is obviously impossible for man to raise his RC> "level up > RC to meet God's standard," why even mention it? RC> > TB > Well you seem to have given up. What kind of voice is telling TB> you that you can't raise your standard ? RC> A holy one: RC> "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." RC> "There is no one righteous, no not one." Please meditate on these holy voices : MAT 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. REV 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. MAT 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. MAT 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-12-91 22:55:00 From Terry Blount To Ralph Stokes Subject NEW MODERATOR RS> Yes, I agree, you should not be the moderator.(grin) Thanks, As usual you find the most meaningful part of the message and ignore the rest. RS> Secondly, if Mike Wallace has dropped out, what do we need a RS> moderator for? Two big reasons : #1. To prevent anyone from turning this conference into the cult_watch conference. Did you know the King James Church is a cult ? If you want to join the cult_watch conference that should be your choice but to bring it here is not in the rule book. #2. Fidonet requires a conference have an active moderator. If a conference does not have an active moderator it cannot stay on the backbone. Are you moving to Buffalo N.Y. ? How is your girl that got hurt in the automobile accident last year ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-12-91 23:03:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject The "virgin" Mary RC> That's exactly why he died: so that there could be many who are RC> like Jesus: his spiritual children. There were 3000 more on RC> Pentecost, 5000 more shortly RC> after that, and then many, many more. Man, if 3000 to 5000 people took away the sins of the world there would not be even a dirty thought left... this place would be squeaky clean ! ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-13-91 08:13:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant 3 TB> > I really don't think impure folk will be the ones on the > narrow path. > You better check your arithmetic again ! RC> God is the only one who can do the sanctifying. The purity that RC> you think you can achieve is only filthiness in the eyes of God, RC> as the following scripturshow. As the following scriptures show, you better prepare. PSA 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation. REV 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. I know you really don't believe that a person needs no preparation. You know what Jesus said: JOH 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Who are his sheep ? Is God making that decision ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-13-91 08:25:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant 3 RC> Only God can cleanse the heart of impurities when a man turns to RC> Christ. That is true, but we have to ask why God didn't just scrub away the sins of the people in Sodom and Gomorrah. Apparently God cannot do it without man's cooperation. If it were all up to God then everyone that went to hell would be mighty disappointed that God didn't clean them up. What determines who God will choose to clean up ? Is it something like random selection or does man make that choice ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-13-91 11:48:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject Resurrection PM> One thing is clear, God pronounced curses on anyone trying PM> to contact the dead. If the dead knew something of value PM> to us, (they don't) why would God have such a curse set for PM> this ? I'm not suggesting you hold a seance. But I'm telling you that just as Moses and Elias worked with Jesus, there are people in your lineage who have likewise died and went into spiritual world that will try to work with you : ( some of them may in fact know more than you ) Hebrews 11:39-41 says, "And all these [saints of the Old Testament age], though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised [admission to the Kingdom of Heaven], since God had foreseen something better [the Kingdom of Heaven] for us [persons on earth], that apart from us they [spirit persons] should not be made perfect". These words demonstrate the principles of returning resurrection. You don't understand the principles of resurrection. Here they are: The Principles of Resurrection Since resurrection means the phenomena occurring in the course of restoring fallen man's nature to the standard originally created by God, the dispensation for resurrection is actually the Dispensation for Restoration. The Dispensation for Restoration is also the dispensation for re-creation. Consequently the dispensation for the resurrection is carried out according to what is explained in "The Principles of the Creation". First of all, according to "The Principles of the Creation", the Purpose of the Creation is fulfilled when man accomplishes his responsibility, by believing in and living God's Word. Therefore in resurrection, which is re-creation, God gives man His Word -- he gave the Old Testament and the New Testament, and he promised to give the complete testament when Christ returns. In order to be resurrected, man must fulfill his responsibility -- to believe in and live the Word. Thus, resurrection is accomplished by God's giving His Word (truth) to man together with man's fulfilling his responsibility to believe in and live the truth. Secondly, according to "The Principles of the Creation", each person's spirit self is created to grow and become perfect only on the basis of a relationship with the physical self. In accordance with this principle, the resurrection (purification, growth, and perfection) of a persons spirit self must also be realized based on his physical self, and thus, while he is living on earth. Actually, until today, resurrection has usually been conceived of as the reviving of the physically dead at Christ's return. But this is incorrect; God's dispensation for resurrection is an ongoing process that has focused on the people who are alive on earth. It is to them that the has sent prophets with the Truth. Thirdly, according to "The Principles of the Creation", man is created to become perfect by growing through the three stages of the growing period. Therefore, the dispensation for the resurrection of fallen man is to be accomplished through three dispensational stages. Fourthly, although the various central persons in God's Dispensation for Restoration could not fully carry out their responsibilities, they did their best with the deepest loyalty to God. Their loyalty and devotion has accumulated as merit on earth. Based on this foundation of heart laid by faithful people of earlier ages, people of later generations have been able to receive certain merits in each age (merits of the age) in the dispensation for resurrection. The dispensation for resurrection is carried out according to the merits of the age. In other words, the degree of resurrection possible in a given age is based on the historical foundation of heart established by the faithful of earlier ages. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-13-91 18:34:00 From Terry Blount To Philip Brown Subject Preaching PB> Where does the Bible ever say that ONLY the 144,000 are PB> anointed with the Holy Spirit??? The hundreds of thousands of PB> martyrs that lived during the ten waves of persecution of PB> christians Groucho Marx said he would not want to be a member of an organization that would have him as a member. They found a way to get around this paradox. You can join the JW's but if your number is 144,001 when you go to sign the register then you have to get on the waiting list and hope there is a cancellation from someone who signed earlier. Since I saw an earlier message claiming the total enrollment at the Kingdom Hall is up to 4 million, I wouldn't be that hopeful about enough cancellations to get me in. ...better consider the Moonies We still are taking applications and our book doesn't stop at 144,000. Actually our book already has your name in it... we are waiting on you to check in along with the rest of the lost sheep we know are out there. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-13-91 22:17:00 From Terry Blount To Walter Copes Subject He Is Yours WC> Unfortunately, Terry, I did not see the original message. I WC> have been very busy lately preparing for the symposium. WC> Generally I check for personal mail and then quickly scan the WC> "to", "from" and "titles". I probably missed this particular WC> message. I don't recognize who DR is at the moment. Hopefully I WC> will have more time soon to devote to the echo. Yes, I noticed you had been busy. Did you notice the moderator of the cult_watch echo came over here and proclaimed he had a divine revelation from Mike to take over as the moderator of this conference ? I'm expecting a renaming of O.B. to Cult_Watch #2 any day now. I hope the United Pentecostal Church isn't on Harvey's cult list. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-13-91 22:22:00 From Terry Blount To Walter Copes Subject Jimmy WC> I do not doubt that you watched him. However, Jimmy WAS WC> defrocked by the Assemblies of God some time ago. He is no WC> longer a part of that organization. He represents only himself WC> since that time. Was that due to his incorrect faith or his actions ? Will faith alone guarantee someone salvation ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-13-91 22:25:00 From Terry Blount To Vail Rodney Subject Resurrection VR> Romans 5:12 VR> "by one man sin entered into the world.....and so death passed VR> upon all men, for that [all have sinned]." VR> At that point, all humanity was condemned to death, that is why VR> Christ came and died. He paid for the 'penalty' of sin, which is VR> death. I don't get it. Are you saying you won't grow old and die ? If the price is paid to live forever in the flesh why aren't at least a few people over a 1,000 years old ? Are you hiding these folks from the rest of us ? I simply don't see any connection between the biblical concept of life and death and Webster's definition. In the Bible life and death are associated with either living in God's dominion or outside God's dominion it has nothing to do with the morphological state of a person's physical body. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-13-91 22:33:00 From Terry Blount To Walter Copes Subject Rev Moon WC> If you are interested in going to the source of these beliefs WC> you might try your local library. The book to look for is THE WC> DIVINE PRINCIPLE which, of course, is written by Moon. Walter, thanks for the plug. BTW did you know that Kim Il San, the president of North Korea, sent his private jet to pick up Rev. Moon and met with him last week ? He also arranged for Rev. Moon's sisters and some of his relatives to meet him at the airport. Rev. Moon spent about a week in North Korea and met about 3 hours with President San. God is working. Unification of the Fatherland. Jacob and Esau unite. Can you understand the gravity of this event ? Did you know I'm going to the USSR to help conduct a Divine Principle workshop for 6,000 Soviet students ? I'll be going Jan 19 and staying for 3 weeks. Don't let folks talk behind my back while I'm gone. And by all means pray for me and my party. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-13-91 22:41:00 From Terry Blount To Walter Copes Subject Rev Moon WC> TB>>After 15 years of study of Rev. Moon's teaching, I have not WC> found TB>>that Jesus was blamed for his crucifixion. John the WC> Baptist gets TB>>the blame for Jesus going the way of the cross. WC> DR>Bingo! I knew it would finally come out and I have prayed to WC> see DR>where these views come from. Thanks Terry, God is a great WC> God a DR>pray answering God as spoken in his word. Tell me how WC> John the DR>Baptist gets the blame, I can't wait to hear this WC> explaination. Obviously, Dale, you were praying in the will WC> of God. Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made WC> manifest; Why don't you give it a shot and explain the Divine Principle teaching on the Mission of the Messiah to brother Dale ? You have probably read and though about this teaching more than anyone in this conference. You don't have to tell him you believe it, just the straight report. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-14-91 07:40:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Bible myths.. RC> Karin has shown, so far, she is not interested in truth. She RC> believes (only RC> when it comes to the bible) in hypercriticism. Ohhhh, Rick, you say that about everyone who does not hold your views. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-14-91 07:42:00 From Terry Blount To Les Wilcox Subject Great Whore LW> Gerard LW> LW> The Bible tells us not to rely upon man and his understanding. LW> I would suggest LW> you look into the Spirit or TO the Spirit and find out what HE LW> has to say about the Great Whore. In other words, read between the lines like he does. < snicker > ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-14-91 07:44:00 From Terry Blount To Roger Hepworth Subject Jesus is God RH> COL 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ RH> in God. RH> RH> RH> Again is writing to dead men? RH> Or are we using figurative terms again? RH> He is using figurative terms. In Luke 9:60 we read that to the disciple who wanted to go home for his father's funeral, Jesus said, "'... Leave the dead to bury their own dead ...'". In these words of Jesus we find two different concepts of life and death. One concept is concerned with the physiological functioning of the physical body. The other is concerned with the people who would gather for the burial of the disciple's father. Why did Jesus indicate that those people who would attend the funeral were dead when they were actually alive? It was because, being under Satan's dominion, they were ignorant of the purpose of life and did not know God, who is the source of life. Revelation 3:1 says, "'... you have the name of being alive and you are dead.'" From this verse we can see that even though a person is physically alive, if he is under Satan's dominion, then from Jesus point of view he is dead. With this view of death, life would then mean to be within God's dominion, fulfilling the God-given purpose of life. In John 11:25, 26 Jesus said, "'... he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die.'" This tells us that whoever is connected to God's dominion through Christ is alive, regardless of whether his physical body is dead or alive and regardless of whether he is on earth or in the spirit world. The need for resurrection is a result of the death caused by the Fall. Let us consider which of the two kinds of death mentioned above is the death resulting from the fall of the first human ancestors. Man's physical body is destined to return to the earth after it becomes old and dies. If God had intended human beings to live eternally on earth in their physical bodies, there would have been no need to create the spirit world for spirit selves to go to. God created the spirit world before man fell; he did not create it after the Fall simply to provide a dwelling for the spirit selves of fallen people. It was always God's plan that man's physical self return to earth and that his spirit self dwell eternally with God in the spirit world (Eccles 12:7). Physical death is not the death caused by the Fall. When God told Adam and Eve that they would surely die on the day that they ate of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen 2:17), the death referred to was not physical death. We see in Genesis that Adam and Eve continued to be active and alive and to have children for more than nine hundred years after they ate the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Yet, if we are to believe God's Word, then in some sense they must have died the moment they broke God's commandment. God's love is the source of life. Therefore leaving the realm of God's love is entering into Satan's realm, where there is no true love, is death. In 1 John 3:14 we learn that "He who does not love abides in death". Also, Roman's 8:6 and Romans 6:23 respectively tell us, "To set the mind on the flesh [to be carnally minded] is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace," and "... the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus ...". So from the Bible's viewpoint, the death which was caused by the Fall is the state resulting from sin -- the state of being separated from God's love. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-14-91 07:46:00 From Terry Blount To Roger Hepworth Subject Jesus is God RH> Isa 43:11 I, even I am the LORD; and beside me there is no RH> saviour. RH> RH> lu 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. RH> RH> Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence RH> also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: RH> RH> RH> WHAT!!!...did you see that last one..... RH> Jesus is our Saviour.... RH> and God only is our saviour......Hmmmmm RH> lets see 2+2=4...yea that right RH> Jesus must be God. Wait a sec... What if you wanted an IBM computer and I was their only representative and you had to purchase it through me.... would that make me IBM ? Of course not. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-14-91 07:49:00 From Terry Blount To Roger Hepworth Subject Jesus is God RH> What can I say, there is on saviour besides God, RH> AND Jesus Christ is our saviour. RH> agian I have to say that Jesus is God. But you ignore scripture that says God is greater than Jesus, Jesus is the mediator between God and fallen man, and God's image is male and female. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-14-91 07:52:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Jesus/God RC> That's something I don't understand about Terry's reasoning, and RC> I probably should have asked him/her. Terry says that it wasn't RC> God's will for Jesus to die on the cross, and that if it had RC> been, Satan was smart enough to figure it out ahead RC> of time and not kill him. If Satan is smart enough to outwit RC> God, why wasn't God smart enough to accomplish his will? Because God's will is not fulfilled by God alone. The will of God is accomplished when man fulfills his portion of responsibility. Re-read your message while thinking about Satan's role in the fall of man. Was it God's will that Adam and Eve disobey God and fall into temptation of the devil then ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-14-91 15:50:00 From Terry Blount To Philip Brown Subject FEARING DEATH PB> Death ITSELF is bad because it goes against God's purpose. No, no, God created man's spirit before the fall, not after. The reason God gave man an eternal spirit is so man could live eternally after the physical body had expired. In addition to that, consider the mess the world would already be in if people did not die. The problem of overpopulation would be serious already, not to mention the situation that would develop in a few million years. PB> It was never God's intention for man to die-- thus it is PB> considered an enemy. But "serious Christians" know that even PB> though they may die, God has made plans for them (and we PB> consider this good). In other words, death is evil, but the PB> provisions that God has made for us after death is good. Nothing is evil about death. Plants and Animals die and they never sinned. The only thing bad about dieing is that you go to the level you have grown to while on earth. Unfortunately that level is not so close to God in most cases. If you are living in hell on earth when you die your spirit will be in hell. MAT 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. MAT 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. JOH 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. JOH 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-14-91 15:59:00 From Terry Blount To Philip Brown Subject JESUS' DEITY PB> Why can't Jesus be a mediator between the person called the PB> Father and man? This clearly makes a distinction between God and Jesus that could not apply if Jesus was God. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-14-91 16:02:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject New Moderator RC> I think Mike Wallace has been doing an excellent job and I hope RC> that tradition continues. Where is Mike ? Do you participate in the Cult_watch echo ? Why should that moderator come over here and start posting the rules and claim the title of appointed co-moderator ? If I want to be moderated by him I'll pick up his conference. I don't like see someone who is so negative about Mormons or any other minority take over this conference and turn it into cult_watch #2. Do we agree on this ? All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-14-91 17:03:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject Covenant PM> RC> We don't know how God destroyed sin. PM> PM> The reason you don't know is that it hasn't happened yet. PM> PM> Let me tell you how it will happen. By fire. But where does sin come from ? Sin isn't something outside of you and me, it comes from within. The fire that will destroy the sin that lies within us is truth. Jesus came to kindle a fire but he did not strike matches... he spoke the truth. Other references to fire say the tongue is a fire and the Old Testament says the tongue is the the word of God. JER 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: In reality God cannot destroy sin directly. If God were good and all powerful and it were up to Him, He would have destroyed sin a long time ago. God destroys sin by raising up a standard of goodness that fallen people can look upon and see their impurities. Once we know good from evil we can divide ourselves as the offerings of the Old Testament were divided and separate the good from evil within ourselves. This is not easy and we rather Jesus come back and do something magical for us... so doctrines of pacifism were created to relax and sooth us while we wait. In the meantime evil flourishes : LUK 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the day of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-14-91 19:56:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject Jesus/God PM> RC> When Jesus died on the cross, he said, "It is finished." PM> And RC> so was all sin. PM> PM> Does that mean I have never sinned? phil You make a good point. Rick seems to think God can't see sin since Jesus was crucified. At least this is what I understand is his view. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-14-91 19:59:00 From Terry Blount To Tim Of_angle Subject Jimmy BC> Jesus didn't come to earth to set up a denomination. TO> No, he came to set up a church. (Matthew 16:18) There is a TO> difference. Is that really what you believe ? Are you spoofing this guy ? 1JO 3:8 ...For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Date 12-16-91 14:57:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant RC> ACCORDING TO REVEREND MOON RC> Problem: Original Sin -- Procreating without being blessed in RC> marriage. Extended to all men. God did not get his children. (you should have said grand children) RC> Solution: Parents be blessed in marriage in future, God gets RC> children. Results: All can be sinless, some through adoption. RC> Requirement: Parents have to be blessed. Children have no RC> personal decision RC> to be sinless. RC> Of Note: Since this doctrine is not taught directly by the RC> bible, it had to be RC> supplemented by the teachings of Reverend Moon. RC> Could you expand or correct my understanding of what you RC> believe? Not really, You did a beautiful job and I applaud you if you did indeed figure all this out by yourself. I suppose there is one part I would like to comment on and that is the part where you seemingly say with disappointment that children have no personal decision to be sinless. I would like to remind you that children have no decision to be born with original sin ....so either way they don't have the freedom to decide if they are going to be born sinless or with original sin. In fact they don't have anything to say about the race, nationality, or social status they are born into. Lastly I want to remind you that no one is free to sin. If you were free to sin it wouldn't cost you, but we both know: ROM 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; And last, last, I also want to remind you that the supplemented teaching Rev. Moon delivered was the result of encounters with Jesus Christ beginning Easter Sunday, 1936. 2,000 years ago Jesus said : JOH 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Do think Jesus could have decided it is time to say these things now ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 15:09:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant RC> to believe. Jesus felt this point was so important that he RC> begins with a phrase indicating the truth, a double "verily." RC> John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I RC> say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the RC> kingdom of God. Birth requires parents and rebirth implies parents. Aren't you reborn through Jesus and the Holy Spirit ? Aren't they your spiritual parents ? RC> John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye RC> shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], RC> ye shall die in your sins. Each person has to make a decision RC> for Christ, else they retain their sin, regardless of the acts RC> of their parents. If parents are blessed in marriage, RC> the children are still required to make a decision for Christ. RC> Parents cannot change the requirements for their children, blessing RC> or no blessing. Hold on a sec. There is a lot of stuff you have missed about the sins of the fathers being passed on to their children. Look at the suffering of Abraham's children when he was cursed for failing to offer the pigeon and dove. Look at Jesus words in John 8:40 ff. Fallen man inherited sin from our original ancestors Adam and Eve. Fallen people have also inherited blessings from their ancestors faith. Look at the story of Jacob for an example. Let me pause for a couple minutes and try to help you understand the meaning of being born sinless. First being sinless does not mean you are perfect, it only means that you have the potential to reach perfection that a person born with original sin does not have. It also means that Satan does not have a claim on you as a child of his lineage as he does on children born with original sin. Sinless children, like Christ can grow up to become a messiah however fallen children can at best attain sainthood. Do you want your children to be saints or messiah's ? Which do you think can procreate sinless children of their own ? Saints can't have sinless children... well unless they are blessed by the messiah... but messiah's can have all the sinless children they want and need no permission and condition of approval from Christ. Sinless children, born of parents blessed in marriage by God, don't need to be born again. They were born right the first time. They don't have to make the same kind of conscious decision to follow God that fallen children have to make. Fallen children have to decide to leave their satanic lineage and fight to cut that relationship and unite with their newly adopted lineage. If sinless children want to sin, the opportunity still exists, but if they are raised by parents like Christ and his Bride then the reality of the True Love of God is so clear that the desire for the less delicious false love of Satan does not tempt them. RC> So far, I only have your suppositions which both contradict and RC> ignore many of the bible's explicit statements regarding RC> salvation. If it weren't for that, I would be much likelier to RC> accept your statements. While your philosophy makes a limited RC> amount of sense, and it is apparent that your desires are RC> sincere, your doctrine is not scriptural. Which just shows me RC> that it is not enough to be sensible and sincere -- one must RC> also believe God. Reverend Moon presents a different doctrine RC> than what we see in the bible. I understand your concern but let me show you where Jesus brought a new doctrine that marveled the folk when he came 2,000 years ago : MAR 1:27ùAnd they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine [is] this? ACS 17:19ùAnd they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, [is]? I have studied Rev. Moon's doctrine for over 15 years and I don't see it contradicting scripture although I clearly know that it does contradict the modern interpretations of scripture. RC> John said if a spirit speaks to us, we are to test the spirit. RC> Is there any evidence that Reverend Moon tested his doctrine? RC> Since it contradicts and ignores relevant scripture, I would RC> have to conclude that he did not. If Jesus appears to you, you will know it is Jesus. You don't find St. Paul questioning the spirit who spoke to him and you don't find St. John testing the authority of the angel who brought the revelation we read at the end of the Bible. I believe the thing you are overlooking in your quest to explain away this teaching is the fact that Satan works best when he is hidden.ùThat is why Satan was so powerful in creating mass destruction and destroying human lives through the ideology of communism.ùIn communism there is not only no God but also no Satan.ùCan you imagine a more convenient place for him to hide than an ideology that says he doesn't even exits ? I can assure you Satan will not come up with a doctrine such as Divine Principle to deceive you.ùDivine Principle teaches that Satan fornicated with Eve and emphasizes Satan's desired to murder Christ through entering Judas. I promise you that Satan is not confessing his sins either. MegaMail -> Warning, Message Truncated! ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 15:42:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant RC> We were; the previous part of your message stated that no one RC> believed Jesus, which is wrong. First who was Jesus #1 man ? MAT 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. But what did everyone, including his #1 man do ? : LUK 22:34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me. LUK 22:61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. Can you tell me why no one was willing to be crucified with Christ ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 15:47:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant RC> it. Since what it does declare is that the original reason he RC> came was to be sacrificed, I believe what it says -- you don't. Absolutely NOT. Jesus did not come to die. He came to restore man to God and do away with the work of the devil. Christians have traditionally believed that Jesus' death on the cross was predestined as the original plan of God. No it was not! It was a grievous error to crucify Jesus Christ. The crucifixion of Jesus was the consequence of the sheer ignorance of the people of Israel concerning God's dispensation. God's will was clearly for the chosen people to accept and believe in Jesus (Jn 6:29, 10:37,38) and receive salvation. The people of Israel did not understand who Jesus of Nazareth was, for even as he hung dying on the cross they mocked him, shouting that they would believe in him as savior only if he came down from the cross. The Bible points out that "he came to his own home, and his own people received him not" (Jn 1:11); and the Apostle Paul testified that "none of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor 2:8). Christians today do not have a clear understanding of the truth behind the historic events that took place in Jesus' time. If God's will for man's salvation could be accomplished only by the Crucifixion, why did he spend so much time preparing a chosen people? Was it not because he did not want to hand his Son over to faithless people? In the garden at Gethsemane, Jesus prayed, "' ... My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me ... My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me ... '" (Mt 26:38, 39). Jesus uttered this prayer not once, but three times. Many Christians, who believe that Jesus' mission was to bring salvation by dying on the cross, explain that Jesus uttered this prayer out of human weakness or frailty. But could Jesus Christ, the savior of mankind, utter any prayer out of weakness? The first Christian martyr, Stephen, and many of the martyrs who followed, never prayed from such weakness. Did they ever ask, "Let this cup pass from me," as they were dying? How can we say that Jesus was weaker than these martyrs? Especially if the purpose of his coming was to save all mankind by dying on the cross, could there be any reason that he would pray to escape from it? This prayer of Jesus was not a selfish or timid prayer, uttered out of fear of dying. If the crucifixion had been the very way for Jesus to save mankind, he would gladly have died on the cross thousands of times over. Jesus was beset with anxiety when he thought about his mission as the Messiah, which was to realize God's Purpose for the Creation on earth. His heart was so troubled because he knew how sorrowful God would feel if the completion of the dispensation for salvation were delayed. Jesus also foresaw the sufferings and bloodshed of his disciples and followers, the Christians, who would have to follow his path of suffering and the cross. He also anguished over the troubled future that would come to the people of Israel if they rejected him. With all of this in mind, in the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus uttered a last desperate prayer to God, repeatedly pleading that God let him remain on earth, even in those hopeless circumstances, so that he could continue his mission and change the hearts of the people to the point where they would accept him. If Jesus' death on the cross was predestined by God, then why did Jesus say to Judas Iscariot, his betrayer, "' ... woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born'" (Mt 26:24); and how can we explain Jesus' crying out on the cross, "' ... My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?'" (Mt 27:46). If the crucifixion were truly God's original will for Jesus, then Jesus should have felt resounding joy on the cross, having successfully completed his mission. Death on the cross was not the mission that God had originally intended for Jesus, his Son. Rather, it became God's painful secondary dispensation necessitated by the faithlessness of the people of Israel. What would have happened if all the people of Israel had believed in Jesus and had welcomed him, loved him, and united with him? Most certainly, complete salvation would have been realized. In other words, Jesus would have completely established the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, the place where the Purpose of the Creation has been realized. God's world would have been realized -- the world in which all people believe in and follow the Son of God. The people of Israel would have become the glorious core of heaven. The Jewish and christian worlds would never have been divided, nor would the early christians have had to endure any of their terrible sufferings. Furthermore, because the Messiah would have completed his mission, there would be no reason for a Second Coming. Understanding the question of salvation in this light, we can see that Jesus' crucifixion was a secondary course of salvation and provided only spiritual salvation. When the people came to the point of completely disbelieving Jesus and abandoning him, God had to pay the price for the sinful lack of faith of the Israelites and all mankind by giving the live of his only Son to Satan as a ransom. As a result, Satan destroyed Jesus' physical body by nailing him to the cross, and Jesus' blood on the cross became the price for the redemption of mankind. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 15:50:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant RC> First, we can argue forever from what each of us thinks makes RC> sense. If we each support an opposing view then what is there RC> to decide the question of which is right? That is why God RC> provided his word in the form of the bible, so that in the RC> analysis of any doctrine, we have something with which to judge. RC> It's not so much "what do I think" or "what do you think" but RC> rather "what does God say?" You are correct. Consider this : If Jesus' death on the cross was not essential for the fulfillment of his messianic purpose, then why did Isaiah 53 predict the Messiah's suffering and death? Here we must remind ourselves that there are also verses in the Bible which prophesy that the Messiah will come as the Son of God and the King of kings and bring about the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. These prophecies appear in Isaiah 9, 11, and 60, in other verses in the Old Testament, and in Luke 1:31-33. When God first created man, he created him to grow to perfection only by man's completing a share of responsibility. Man can either accomplish his responsibility, as God wants him to do, or to the contrary, he can fail to accomplish it. Accordingly, it was necessary that God give two kinds of prophecies regarding the fulfillment of His Will. It is God's responsibility to send the Messiah, but it is man's responsibility to believe in him. Unfortunately, by not accepting Jesus, the Israelites failed to fulfill their responsibility; they did not fulfill God's primary prophecies for the Messiah's coming, which are in Isaiah 9, 11, and 60 and Luke 1:31-33, but to the contrary, carried out the alternative or secondary prophecy of the suffering Messiah, in Isaiah 53. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 15:53:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant RC> for his sin. Each individual has to decide for Christ, whether RC> their parents are blessed in marriage or not. Not really, that is like your children having to decide if they want to belong to your family. Since they are already born a Carroll then they don't have to decide if they want to be on. RC> All who are "born again" of the spirit are adopted into God's RC> family. Everyone RC> "blessed in marriage" who does not become born again will die in RC> his/her sins, and face the eternal death of hell. Still this spiritual adoption does not allow you to parent sinless children. Christ must come again and eliminate original sin and adopt those among us who can recognize him ...into his family and bless them in marriage so they too can parent sinless children. ...else sin continues to be a reality with each successive generation. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 16:04:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant TB> See there you go underestimating the power of the blood of Christ. RC> I don't underestimate the power of God in any way. It's RC> just that I understand RC> how his power is used for salvation, whereas you refuse to RC> believe the scripturethat speak directly to you about it. But your belief says salvation is not through enough to go beyond your generation. I suppose that is really our major difference. I believe the power of Christ can extend through me, even to and through my children to my eternal lineage. How is that for believing in the power of God ? Does that contradict any scripture you know of ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 16:11:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant TB > You can ask the same questions of Jesus' apostles. How did TB> they find > Christ when everyone said Jesus was a phoney ? RC> They heard his physical voice and didn't need any special RC> anointing. Are you suggesting the same thing? Yep, I hear the voice of God. That is why you should listen to me. RC> I don't know all of what your doctrine includes. Is there a way RC> to find out without having to transmit all of it through the RC> echo? I can send you the Divine Principle on a few 1.2 meg diskettes if you send me your address. You can net mail it if you like to my bbs. Or you can call and download : ( 38,400 baud HST ) DP.ZIP 153,960 Or you can have me arrange to have someone knock on your door. RC> The biblical doctrine is simple and well-known, so I would RC> guess you probably know most of it already. I'm not sure what 'bible doctrine' you are speaking of. I did attend Unification Theological Seminary for 2 years where I studied many denominational doctrines. I was also raised Southern Baptist so I have pretty good feel for the general fundamental beliefs. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 16:26:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant RC> picture of his ministry. You just need to understand that the RC> first time he came RC> was as a sacrificial offering, but the next time he comes it RC> will be as King, and he won't be gentle. I find it hard to believe God would keep such a secret from his chosen people. Why can't you find even one Jew who expects Christ to come twice ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 16:30:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant RC> > First all prophecy is dual in nature. RC> This is not prophecy but a direct statement made by Jesus. He RC> said clearly that his purpose in coming was to go through the RC> suffering he was about to face. I simply think this came as a result of faithless of the chosen people later on in Jesus' ministry. Here is why Jesus came : JOH 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly. Jesus did not have to die to bring fallen man back into a relationship with God. If a dead Christ could do that then there would be no need for the resurrection. > > Second, I take Jesus mission is the > > context of the time frame it actually took place. This means > that many > things happened that changed the message from > "Repent the kingdom of > heaven is at hand" in the beginning of > Jesus ministry to the promise of a > > second coming at the end. RC> Do you mean that God didn't know this would happen, and so had RC> to change the message when He realized it would? God always has to change His plans when man fails. This does not mean that God does not know man may fail. I am sure God remembered way back to when Moses had trouble with faithless followers and had a pretty good idea that Jesus may face similar difficulty. RC> > When John lost faith and Jesus lost the support RC> > from the foundation that God had prepared through the ministry RC> of John the RC> > Baptist, Jesus had to start over and try to rebuild that RC> foundation. > Unfortunately he could not find the quality and RC> quantity of supporters he RC> > needed to continue. This disaster was not preordained by God. RC> It was a RC> > most unfortunate and terrible catastrophe. RC> So, you're saying that God didn't foresee or prepare for this RC> eventuality, but that Satan was actually much smarter? No, not at all. I'm saying that God open up a great possibility for fallen man to escape Satan's dominion but the people didn't recognize the chance they had. As a result they and their children have had to remained in suffering under Satan's dominion because they didn't get out when they had the chance. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 16:43:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant RC> And why did Jesus say that his blood was shed for the New RC> Covenant (testament) RC> so that sins could be remitted? RC> -> Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, RC> which is shed -> for many for the remission of sins. RC> ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^ Which sins ? If the chosen people did not commit the sin of faithlessness then Jesus would not have had to pay that price. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 16:51:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant TB > The most important thing at this time in history is the opportunity to be blessed in marriage by the messiah. Seek him and get that blessing at all cost ! RC> Does this blessing only come through association with Reverend RC> Moon? First this is something you will have to realize for yourself. Second would it make any difference ? If a crippled, one eyed, toothless idiot had the authority to bless you and your wife in Holy Matrimony to allow you to parent sinless children, would you still want it ? I would do whatever necessary to get that blessing. I really don't think you love your children any less. You would also want this blessing for your unborn children if you realized it were there. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 16:57:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant RC> It is unscriptural to believe children can be born into their RC> physical body without the sin nature of their parents. While RC> God can do this, he says he will not. Are you hinting that God created His children in such a way that as long as they had flesh they would automatically sin ? Besides a woman named Mary once had a son who had a physical body and he did not inherit her sin nature. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 17:00:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant 3 > You know what Jesus said: > JOH 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow > me: > > Who are his sheep ? RC> Those who accept the free gift of eternal life through Jesus RC> Christ. > Is God making that decision ? RC> The only decision a man needs to make is an easy one: accept the RC> free gift of eternal life. So you agree that God is not making the decision and man needs some preparation in order to understand and make such a decision. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 17:02:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant 3 TB> > Is it something like random selection or does man make that choice ? RC> Man makes a choice to receive the cleansing that God RC> offers. Well, we aren't really as far apart as I first thought. I agree that it is God who puts man is situations so that man may be purified. I think you understand that man can and often does disappoint God and yield to temptation. Unfortunately I'm usually in a position to try to get it across to the people I am writing to that man has to make decisions and overcome temptations that would lead to sin and disrupt a relationship with God. In a sense it is like trying to straighten a hacksaw blade. It has to be bent past the point you want it because it will spring back toward its original position. This effort to support man's responsibility usually tends to lead people to think I am preaching that salvation has little to do with God. This is not my point, rather I am sure God has done His part. The restoration of the world is still under construction because of man's procrastination. I have the same sense of frustration Jesus had when he told the parable of the talents in Mat 25:14 ff. Here is his conclusion: MAT 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: I get a sense that there is little room near Christ for people of little ambition. See REV 3:15 ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 17:47:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Covenant 3 TB> Well, people also used to think that the mother was merely a vessel where > the father deposited the baby to grow and mature, but now we know that > both parents contribute to the gene pool. Maybe you will change this > belief someday? RC> And maybe you will change yours. Is that the best you can do? Well, I know I have set a pretty high standard for combating heresy but not every reply I make is a jewel. RC> > RC> It was important that Jesus have a father RC> > RC> who did not have the sin nature. RC> > RC> > Why ? RC> Because Jesus could not offer his life in place for others if he RC> had the sin nature. He had to be born without sin and remain RC> that way in order for his sacrifice to be perfect. RC> He was both God and man, with no sin to cause him to deserve RC> death. The only man who did not deserve death -- who was also RC> God -- accepted it so that those who did deserve it did not have RC> to face the eternal death of hell. So if Jesus' father was indeed Zacharias that would mean that God could not have sent His son because God can't send a sinless child to a human couple ? TB> Sorry, I believe Christs' blood was more powerful while TB> inside his veins. I suppose this is the root of our TB> disagreement. RC> Yes, and in order for you to believe what you do, RC> you have to ignore the types and shadows in the Old Testament of RC> which Jesus was the fulfillment. In the Old Testament, blood RC> sacrifice was always required for the sin of the people. That RC> hasn't changed. The difference is that where the Old Covenant RC> required blood sacrificyearly, the New Covenant was completed by RC> only one perfect blood sacrifice RC> -- that of Jesus Christ. But this blood sacrifice you say Jesus HAD to make was dependant on Satan fulfilling a portion of responsibility that included entering Judas and betraying Christ. Do you see why I find it hard to believe that God formulated a plan that depended on Satan to fulfill a mission? If you are correct then if Satan had failed the offering would not have been made and man would be in hell forever... or something like that. Let me get back to my point... sinless children need no blood sacrifice. They are born right the first time. The great hope of Christianity is the marriage of the Lamb. This will really take place, in fact I'll tell you it already took place over 31 years ago. TB > Where is Christs' blood most powerful? In his body or on TB > the ground? RC> For the remission of sin, it has the greatest power RC> only when shed, for without RC> the shedding of blood, there is NO remission of sin. I think you wrote before you thought about that. TB> In his body it could sustain his physical life and allow him to become the > father of God's grand children. On the ground Satan is the one who can > have grand children. RC> The entire world was populated by the children of Satan. Only RC> those who have been born again of the spirit become children of RC> God. Yes, but only in a spiritual sense. These born again folk still procreate children that are in need of salvation. God is going to fix this problem and He may not fix it like you expect. In fact the only solution to the problem of people being born of fornication is to get their parents married first. JOH 8:41 ...Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 18:10:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Exegetical Help WanWa RC> or earlier. Sometimes he would pray all night. The "watching" RC> means going without sleep, RC> literally and figuratively, to stay in God's will. I used to RC> stay up all night Friday night till about 5 am to pray and RC> meditate in the word. I knew there was a reason God is working to show you the Divine Principe. You have knocked and now the door is being opened for you. I repent that I am not qualified to teach you this new truth in a way you can easily receive it. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 18:13:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject False Revivals, Character PM> Characteristics of False Revivals Where did you get the idea for such a topic ? PM> Appeal to the imagination. Oh you went to a False revival. PM> Excite the emtions. PM> Gratify love for what is new and startling. Those two are also characteristics of a true revival. PM> This is called the moving of the Holy Spirit. PM> But demonstrating demons in the form of men, are present. PM> PM> Note: a false revival is to preceed the true one. PM> PM> Question: are we already in it? No, the real question is what do you have against the Pentecostal Church ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 18:23:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject Jesus/God RC> > Don't you know there are 7 deadly sins that carry a little RC> more weight ? RC> Not so. That is a myth in relation to hell. All sin has RC> consequences, but for the believer, one consequence that is RC> eliminated is that of facing hell. RC> > Can you name 5 of them ? RC> No interest. Humm, I thought you were Catholic. Well so much for that theory. You are well behaved like many Catholics I have had discussions with. You are also well behaved like the Mormons I have had discussions with. You must tell me more about your protestant affiliations. I find few protestant fundamental christians have the intellectual capacity to discuss my ideas in the detail you have achieved. Perhaps many could but their emotions eventually cause them to get really weird. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 18:35:00 From Terry Blount To Rick Carroll Subject The "virgin" Mary RC> If Jesus hadn't died on the cross, there would have been only RC> one child of God. Instead, all can have the same nature. Oh yeah ? What if he had married and had 10 or 20 children ? Do you really think Satan would have wanted to deal with those sinless children ? Who benefited most by Jesus' crucifixion ? Could it be the one who participated by entering Judas and betraying Christ to bring about this event ? Sinless children grow up to be messiahs you know. Do you realize that Christ had the power on earth to forgive sins ? If a dead Christ provided salvation then there would have been no need for God to resurrect Jesus. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 20:12:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject Conditional Immortality PM> The floodgate doors of spiritism are opened anytime one PM> believes that you die and your spirit is not dead or dormant. Why ? What does knowledge of something have to do with whether it exist or not. Man believed the world was flat for thousands of years but realizing it was round did not cause it to changed shape. It was always round. ..well kinda round. PM> Were the clear Word of God believed, all of us would know that PM> the living soul has oxygenated blood circulating through it. There is no scripture that says this. Besides if that were true and you went into outer space with Jesus then your soul would die. There is no Oý out there to oxygenate your blood. PM> Immortality is not a present possession. In one sense only, PM> it may be *considered* a presnet possession, in that the One PM> who promised it to us, never fails to keep His Promises. I don't know what that means. PM> Should you die of prolonged cancer pain, your very next PM> thought (if you come up on the first resurrection) is an echo PM> of what Paul said: "O death, where is thy sting, O grave where PM> is thy victory" Why is it so important to you to believe your spirit will not continue to live when your body grows old and dies ? All living things eventually grow old and die. PM> The interval in between is a total void. And that is the PM> reason God of Heaven pronouces such scathing curses upon PM> spiritists, who say: "There is no death, and there are no PM> dead." My concept of death is living outside the dominion of God's love. It has little to do with the morphological state of my physical body. PM> Since we are near (or in) the last days, look for much more of PM> this channeling to invade our churches, and deceive even the I'm not suggesting channeling or messing around with spirits of people who have died. I do however understand the our physical body is an essential necessity for spiritual growth and people who have died without attaining perfection must return to support someone who still has a physical body. This includes everyone who has lived except Christ. So if you know it or not, you are the focus of millions of people in the spiritual world. They must support your spiritual growth in order to be resurrected themselves. Many people have experienced the presence of spiritual beings and were confused as a result. This experience lead them to think that they are the reincarnation of that person. PM> Incidentally, the doctrine of Conditional Immortality has been PM> the predominant view down through the ages, and only recently PM> has it been so challenged, via Plato and crew. I'm not sure what 'conditional immortality' is but I know my spirit will exist forever and my body is only a temporary vehicle that is used in its development. When I die and my body returns to the earth I will NEVER get it back again. Wishing and positive thinking and believing otherwise won't change that fact. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 20:33:00 From Terry Blount To Ken Rucker Subject FEARING DEATH KR> :TB>MAT 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind KR> on e :TB>shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose KR> on earth :TB>be loosed in heaven. KR> :TB> KR> KR> KR> I would like your interpretation of that verse. I find t a bit KR> confusing. Thanks! As I understand it a person's spiritual body has a relationship with their physical body that influences the development of the spiritual body. If you become a saint on earth you will be a saint in the spiritual world. If you are a thief and whoremonger while on earth, that is what you will be in the spiritual world. KR> by the way, I use a few of your utilities and KR> maybe you have seen a fe won mine. Had posted msg's to you KR> before. Not that I can remember... messages or utilities. Can you reply and just list them with their description ? KR> I am assuming from your message that you are a Christian KR> and thought I would say Praise God for that. Well, I consider myself a Christian however my theology is considered heresy by most people who call themselves christians. I have been a member of the Unification Church, founded by the controversial Rev. Sun Myung Moon, for over 15 years. The basic difference is our belief is that Adam and Eve should have matured and then been blessed in marriage by God... and God would have had grand children. However the fall of man occurred and this did not happen. God prepared a foundation and sent Jesus to restore the family that Adam and Eve failed to realize. In other words, Jesus did not come to be murdered, he came to find a bride and establish a ideal family and bring sinless children (God's grand children ) into the world. Since Jesus did not find faith and was murdered Christ must return with the same mission : to marry and establish a family centered on God. When children can be born without sin, they will not need a messiah or re-birth. They will be born right the first time. We believe we are in the last days and this is happening now. By the way, I have found that most Christians worry that everyone else will be condemned by this plan and that only Christ and his kids can go to heaven. However we believe it would be a crippled teaching if Christ tells his followers that he could marry but they could not. So Christ will adopt his faithful followers into his family and they too will be blessed in holy matrimony. KR> I am but constantly struggle with the ways of the world. You are not alone in that boat. We are all wishing for the same thing St. Paul wanted : ROM 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 20:50:00 From Terry Blount To Tim Of_angle Subject Jimmy TO> BC> Jesus didn't come to earth to set up a denomination. TO> TO> No, he came to set up a church. (Matthew 16:18) There is TO> a TO> difference. TO> TO> TB> Is that really what you believe ? Are you spoofing this TO> guy ? TB> TO> TB> 1JO 3:8 ...For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, TO> that he might TO> TB> destroy the works of the devil. TO> Do you see some incompatibility between these two concepts? Well, I guess not. I suppose I just wondered why the Jewish people didn't expect Christ to come and build a church... well maybe they were and that is why they were waiting on him with a hammer, nails and some boards ? Too bad they had the wrong blue prints. Jesus could have probably built a heck of cathedral. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 20:57:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject Merit. Whose? PM> PM> "Their loyalty and devotion has accumulated as merit on PM> earth." PM> In that case, the earth should be getting better and better PM> each day. PM> PM> One of my inlaws teaches this view. She is a fool. Well someone may be a fool but it may be the one who does not realize that evil peopl are also building up merit at the same time. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 21:01:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject Resurrection PM> TB> I'm not suggesting you hold a seance. But I'm telling you PM> TB> that just as Moses and Elias worked with Jesus, there are PM> TB> people in your lineage who have likewise died and went into PM> TB> spiritual world that will try to work with you. PM> PM> This sounds like Roman Catholicm, invoking dead saints to PM> come to our aid. You make it sound like being a Catholic is a sin. .....anyway, you did not read anything from me that suggested you try to involve dead saints to come to our aid. I suggest you obey God's word then any spirits, saints, demons or middle men can react however they will. I personally don't think too many demons and lowly spirits will be attracted to you if you are praying and seeking to live a godly way of life. Why do you want to be unconscious when you die ? Remember to be careful what you wish for... you may get it. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 21:09:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject Resurrection TB> There are TB> people in your lineage who have likewise died and went into TB> spiritual world that will try to work with you PM> If so, they are doing a fantastic job of lousing up. You keep writing messages like this and you will find many people who will agree with you. ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 21:10:00 From Terry Blount To Will Hansen Subject Resurrection WH> How can a dead man keep the 10 commandments? Simple they : EXO 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. EXO 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. EXO 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. EXO 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. EXO 20:17 Thou shalt not covet.... ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 21:12:00 From Terry Blount To Phil Morrison Subject Stages of Perfection PM> Where does the idea that there are "stages" or PM> dispensations come from? PM> PM> Are men saved differently in differing ages? Not really. PM> PM> OT people looked forward, we look backward - but all of us PM> look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. And a few of us look forward to the Second Coming of Christ. PM> So much for all the massive domes, deep toned organs, PM> impressive ceremonials and all like dunghill material. PM> PM> The religion of Jesus Christ needs no such attractions PM> to recommend it. So do you think God's house should be a dump like a crack house ? ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ Date 12-16-91 22:20:00 From Terry Blount To Tom Grelinger Subject "Brainwashing" TG> >> CS> That works both ways. I know someone personally who in TG> >> CS> the early 1950's was forced to have her head shaved and TG> >> CS> was forbidden to read books or newspapers when she was a TG> >> CS> novice on her way to becoming a Roman Catholic nun. TG> Big deal. She chose what she wanted to be, and could have TG> backed out at any time before she made final vows. The Armed TG> forces require recruits' heads to be shaved. Do submariners get TG> to read newspapers? No. The woman knew what she was getting TG> into, and could back out at any time. I do not call that TG> brainwashing. Great reply !