This is a series of messages about madder dyeing that started on 10-14-91 and ended on 1-19-93. From: SHERI STANLEY To: All .........Also, a friend and I have been trying to dye with madder. Every book I've found says that you can get "rose" from madder with alum. So far: Orange, in forty different shades, nothing but orange. We've tried changing the heatand fooling with the ph a little, but I'm starting to get discouraged. Any advice? From: DEBORAH PULLIAM To: SHERI STANLEY I've had some great luckwith madder, but I think age of the dyestuff has someting to do with it. You'd think that color in dried roots would remain the same, but try to get some fresh, use A LOT, and you may have to test the ph level, the problem nay have to do with the water quality in your area. Are you familiar with A Weaver's GArden by Rita Buchanan, pugblished by Interweave Press. Rita's done a lot with madder, grown a lot in fact, and we talked a lot about the strength of color problem, and came up witht the age theory! Excellent book, and lots of history (although perhaps not as far back as SCA would want.) Also, make sure you grind the madder as fine as possible. I even soak it for several days, then grind it again in a blender, to extract as much color as possible. Also get a copy of the BBG book on natural dyeing, it has a lot of good history (I used to work in a museum, and still do a lot of reprduction work, so I got to know tyhe sources!)] From: SHERI STANLEY To: DEBORAH PULLIAM Well, we've been using "A weaver's garden"--what do you mean by "the BBG" book? It's true, we haven't been grinding the madder quite that fine, but over the summer we purchased pre-ground madder & got the same results (of course, the acrylic choke ties on the skeins turned pink, but the wool was orange!). Maybe we'll try starting with distilled water next time. hmn. Thanks From: TERESA PARKER To: SHERI STANLEY I get orange when dyeing madder too. I grow it in the garden and did not do anything other than break the root into small pieces. I was careful with the temp. and got quite a nice orange using alum, but no red. I'll try grinding some next. There are madder recipes in J. & R. Bronson Early American Weaving and Dyeing (Dover) and Weaving with Foot-Power Looms by Edward F. Worst (Dover). I love Worst's last name for a weaving book, don't you? Some of those recipes have you use Cochineal too. I wonder if they are trying to tell us something about madder. I'm looking for a really good clear red and would like to use madder. Is the only way I'm going to get it to use cochineal with it???? From: ANDREA ALBERT To: SHERI STANLEY Some of the same thing happened to me when I tried to dye with bloodroot. We had a series of messages about "the evil bloodroot" on Fibernet before Auntie. Anyhow, the skein turned sort of "dinge" colored, and the acrylic tyes turned ORANGE! A beautiful bright Orange. Go figure! From: DEBORAH PULLIAM To: SHERI STANLEY The BBG book is Dyes from Nature, edited by Rita Buchanan. Brooklyn Botanic Garden Record: Vol. 46, No. 2, Summer 1990. Handbook # 124. $6. It's a terrific book, lots on history, lots of practical stuff; extremely affordable! From: SHERI STANLEY To: ANDREA ALBERT What colors did you get from the madder? We (my apprentices & I ) are trying desperately to get some pinks/reds out of madder & alum, but all we're getting are oranges! ARRGH. From: SHERI STANLEY To: AFTON KOONTZ You don't happen to have a suggestion for my little madder problem, do you? (We just can't get pink or red w/alum. Orange, orange, orange. yuck.) From: ANDREA ALBERT To: SHERI STANLEY I got orange tones, some deep roses (kind of - with orange overtones) and some purple-ish tones with chrome. VERY NICE! From: NANCY ROSE To: SHERI STANLEY Be sure to keep the temperature of the madder bath down to 180 degrees. A higher temperature knocks out the red and brings out yellow tones. Nevertheless, madder is a yellower red Somebody knows, or at least knew how to do it once. How about one of you -> stalwarts digging into the literature and finding out how the Brits did Okay, here's Elijah Bemis, "The Dyer's Companion", 1815, reprinted by Dover, 1973: "FOR RED WITH MADDER. "To twenty yards of cloth, take one peck of wheat bran, boil it in a small kettle with eight gallons of water, one hour; then fill your copper with water, boiling hot; then add the liquor of the bran, and three and an half pounds of allum, one pouud of red argal, boil and run your cloth, (being well scoured and clean) one and an half hours, boiling; then air and rince your cloth, and shift the liquor from your copper; fill with fair water, then add eight pounds of madder that is good, and heat moderately, with constant stirring, till near scalding hot; run your cloth three quarters of an hour with a moderate fire, then increase your fire, and bring it near a boiling heat, but not boiling, for the madder must not boil, if you intend to have a good red; then run your cloth in this manner until the strength is well out of the madder, and the colour well raised on the red; then shift your liquor from your copper; fill with water, and add two and an half pounds of the best Brazil, boil well one hour, and add three quarters of a pound of allum and run your cloth till your colour suits, boiling between each dipping; and this will produce a good red. "This colour may be finished in the madder dye without shifting the dye, by adding two gallons of lant or sig. After the colour is well raised in the madder, run your cloth thirty minutes, and it will answer. "The best is with Brazil, but it is more lengthy, and the colour is brighter than with the sig; so I leave it to the discretion of the dyer." red argal: potassium bitartrate made from red grapes. sig: fermented urine, substitute ammonia. So there. From: RON PARKER To: NANCY ROSE Now, THERE'S a recipe. Thanks. What is lant? Also, is Brazil logwood? One wonders if some copper dissolved from the pot might play a part too. Might be worth trying adding a bit of a copper salt to the bath. Also, there could be lead both from the solder on the boiler as well as from the 1815 plumbing. The mind reels. From: NANCY ROSE To: RON PARKER Lant wasn't in the glossary but the Oxford English D. says "stale urine...chamber lye". (I LOVE the Oxford English. What other dictionary would give that kind of information. The last citation is from 1879.) Brazil is brazilwood, not logwood. Adrosko gives three different trees called brazilwood: Caesalpinia echinata, from Brazil; Caesalpinia sappan, from India, Malaya, and Ceylon; and Haematoxylon brasiletto, from Nicaragua, Colombia, and Venezuela. This last one would be related to logwood, Haematoxylon campechianum. I gather the brazilwoods are not very fast. As for the plumbing, I'm not sure that it used lead pipes or joints or that could be made with lead. Bemis occasionally mentions well water for this dye or river water for that dye but doesn't say how to get it to the pot other than "A dye-house should, however, be erected on a spacious plan, roofed over, but admitting a good light, and as nigh as possible to a running water, which is very necessary, either to prepare the wool before it is dyed, or to wash it afterwards." Bemis says this about his dyepots: "The first thing necessary is the copper kettle; I say *copper* kettle, because it is most commonly used in all hot dyes, and all hot dyes may be coloured in the copper, and I shall mention no other in the following receipts. Block tin or brass, are better for red and yellow, than the copper; and iron the best for black or green; but this I leave to the discretion of those in practice. The size ought to be from two to four barrels, according as your business requires." This is a fun book. Elijah Bemis, "The Dyer's Companion", Dover Pubs., New York, 1973. Check it out. LONG section on indigo vats. From: RON PARKER To: NANCY ROSE NR ³ As for the plumbing, I'm not sure that it used lead pipes or joints or NR ³ that could be made with lead. One would need a plumbing history book, but I have the impression that wood was used for large pipes, cast iron and tile for medium sized pipes, and lead for the smaller ones. Lead was still used a century ago for water lines from city mains to houses. NR ³ Bemis occasionally mentions well water for this dye or river water NR ³ for that dye Could be related to differences in hardness or oxygen content. Much well water is oxygen free to the extent that it contains iron and manganese in soluble form which then becomes insoluble and precipitates out as oxides and hydroxides on exposure to air over the course of a number of hours. Until then, though the iron and manganese would be free to react with dyes. NR ³ mention no other in the following receipts. Block tin or brass, are NR ³ better for red and yellow, than the copper; and iron the best for black or NR ³ green; Makes me wish I was temporarily back in my lab at Wyoming where I could have done non-destructive chemical analysis of some old dyed fabric for trace elements to see if the pot composition shows up in the fabric chemistry. Probably does. From: ANN DURHAM To: All On the subject of mordants--the famous Unicorn tapestries have been chemically analyzed and one of the mordants used was zinc! Has anyone ever heard of (or tried) this? Maybe it's one of the secrets to madder red. From: RON PARKER To: ANN DURHAM The use of a zinc mordant for madder is worth a try, and interesting. Certainly zinc would have been available to the old timers, and could even have entered in as a contaminant from zinc-coated vessels much as copper is leached from copper containers. I suspect that both lead and arsenic would have their place as well, but safety concerns might inhibit experimentation in those directions. Lead and arsenic were used in all sorts of concoctions in the days of yore. From: DEBORAH PULLIAM To: RON PARKER Am I really the only person getting red from madder? IÕve used it with an alum mordant, and gotten a wonderful Chinese lacquer red. I did use a fairly heavy concentration of madder root to wool to get the intense color. On another batch, I used some that might have been old, not ground too well, and got a very nice coral color (but not what I had in mind.) I do know itÕs important to grind the root well, to release the red pigments, which are deeper in the roots. The browns tend to be in the "bark" and closer to the surface. Also, the browns tend to come out at higher temperatures, which is why it's important to control the simmering point. Something like 18 different compounds of pigments are in the roots, so somehow dyers are getting the wrong ones. The most likely solution is that the water contains something that is not bringing out the bluer reds, but is concentrating the yellows and browns, and, in effect, is acting as a further mordant (that you don't want). Who knows what is in my water; we have a 100 year old-plus water company that adds things, and it changes from day to day. I do know some of the old dye books specify hard water for madder, and adding slaked lime if necessary. Wool for the British redcoats was dyed with madder, using an alum mordant, Ron; they tended to use such every day things as cow and sheep manure (I was about to say shit, as I normally would, but you insist this is a family BBS) and wood ash. In the research I've done on the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, I never ran into any eye of newt, worm casts, or moustache hairs of any species. Sorry to disappoint you. From: RON PARKER To: DEBORAH PULLIAM DP > Am I really the only person getting red from madder? Apparently, at least the only Fibernetter who is. Teresa used an alum mordant too. The water used is our hard well water after being run through an iron remover gadget then a water softener. Will have to try adding some lime next time and grinding finer. How do you grind the roots? I was thinking a coffee mill or foood processer might work. Will have to try distilled water too. Maine water should be relatively pure and soft if my geologist's guess is correct. Oh well, will have to dig some new roots this summer, and do a little experimenting - we have sheep s... and wood ashes in abundance, so they might be worth a shot too. From: NANCY ROSE To: RON PARKER -> The water used is our hard well water after being run -> through an iron remover gadget then a water softener. It's my understanding that a water softener adds salt to the water. Salt is usually a leveller in dyeing, which slows down the rate at which the dye is taken up by the wool. Can you intercept the water between the iron remover and the softener? From: NANCY ROSE To: RON PARKER -> ...adding some lime next time and grinding finer. How do you grind the -> roots? I was thinking a coffee mill or food processer might work. When I was doing natural dying, some years ago, I would soak the madder overnight in water to cover, which softens it considerably, then run it through the blender with the soaking water until it was nearly a paste. From: RON PARKER To: NANCY ROSE NR ³ When I was doing natural dying, some years ago, I would soak the madder NR ³ overnight in water to cover, which softens it considerably, then run it NR ³ through the blender with the soaking water until it was nearly a paste. That was Deborah Pulliam's suggestion too. When I dig some root this summer, I'll try that. I suppose freshly dig could be ground immediately. From: NANCY ROSE To: DEBORAH PULLIAM -> Am I really the only person getting red from madder? IÕve used it with -> an alum mordant, and gotten a wonderful Chinese lacquer red. I did use a I found a bit of yarn I dyed several years ago with madder. Maybe we should each send a sample of our madder dyeing to Ron and Theresa to see how much our color differs from theirs. Some of the difference may be in our idea of red. Madder red is certainly not cochineal red. -> Who knows what is in -> my water; we have a 100 year old-plus water company that adds things, -> and it changes from day to day. How interesting. What kind of things? From: DEBORAH PULLIAM To: RON PARKER I usually soak the dried madder root for a couple of days in plain water, then grind it in an old blender (I wouldn't use a food one, especially because the roots really dig into the jar, and sometimes bend the blades). I donÕt think a food processor would work as well, but I really don't know. Again, it would really scratch up the bowl. An old fashioned meat or coffee grinder would probably work best. A newer coffee grinder (which you canÕt use for grinding wet stuff) just bounces the stuff around. Unfortunately Maine water isn't nearly as pure as youÕd think. Ours (in-town Castine) comes from several sources, including two deep wells and an open reservoir. But even the pure stuff they sell in bottles is full of minerals and stuff, so it tastes great but wouldnÕt qualify as pure for dyeing. Have you tried using your water before it goes through the softener? I've heard madder works better with harder water. From: RON PARKER To: DEBORAH PULLIAM OK, will try. We have an old blender with a thick glass container than would resist the scrtaching just fine. We were just talking about getting a new one. Now (we're both frugal people) we can buy a new one with a clear conscience, because we are just changing the job of the old one, not trashing it. Besides it saves me the work of taking the electric motor out of it and trying to figure out a use for it. DP > Have you tried using your water before it goes through DP > the softener? I don't think so. That would be a good idea, because at least the iron would have been removed. From: RON PARKER To: DYERS For those of you who followed the discussion of old timey madder dyeing, the book The Dyers Companion, by Elijah Bemis is still available from Dover Publications, Inc., 31 East 2nd Street, Mineola, NY 11501 for $7.95 plus $2.50 for Book Rate or $4.00 for UPS. It is book # 20601-7. From: DICK LINDELL To: ALL For all of you who have been dinking around with Madder for dyeing, I thought you might be interested in what J. & R. Bronson (weavers &c) said about Madder in 1817. I quote: Madder.-This is an important and valuable plant; which is used in dyeing red, cinnamon, &c. The root, which is the only part made use of, is long and slender, of a red color, both on the outside and within, excepting a whitish pith that runs through the middle of it. The only precaution in selecting the common ground madder, is that it should appear of a bright yellowish red-brown, and it should smell sweet and fresh. The madder plant may be cultivated in many parts of the U.S. to advantage. It is three years after the first root is set in the ground, before it comes to maturity: they may be placed 4 feet apart in the first setting them in the ground, and should be hoed the first year to keep them clear from weeds. If they are planted on a rich deep soil, which is best,the roots will extend to a depth of two feet or more, and yeild more abundantly than almost any other vegatable. The time of taking them out of the ground is in the months of September and October, they are then carefully assorted and washed in clean cold water and dried by a stove heat, ready for pounding. The first pounding separates and brings into the form of a powder the smallest fibres of the roots, with the skin or husk of the larger ones, and any earth which may have been left adhering thereto. This powder being sifted, is then packed separately in casks and sold at a low price and used for cheap, dark colors. A second pounding separates about one third of the remaining part of the larger roots, and this being sifted and packed separately, is called ordinary powder. The third and last pounding comprehends the residue and bright part of the roots; this is called crop madder, which produces the best of reds. This kind of madder is as yet scarce in this country. Madder gives to woollen cloth, prepared with allum and tartar, the most durable of all reds, though not so bright as the cochineal scarlet; yet the red of madder has this important advantage, by enduring to be washed with soap, without producing any material change in color: where- as the cochineal scarlet by the same means used, becomes tarnished. Those who dye the best madder red, are very careful to keep the liquor of a heat considerably below that of boiling, encreasing the fire towards the end, so that it may boil only a minute or two before the woollen is taken out. Should the liquor be suffered to boil for a long time, it would extract the light brown matter contained in madder, which would change it to a dull dark red This is the end of the Bronson info on Madder. The punctuation and spelling are directly from the book. Thought you might get a little better flavor of the book from this. WBG Dick Lindell From: RON PARKER To:DICK LINDELL Thanx for the madder info Dick. The stuff about the pounding and sieving is especially informative. I'm going to gather all the madder messages into a file and put it in the files area.