From: DAWN@PANDORAS.NACJACK.GEN Info on wool weights etc (Long) The following is a compilation of advice given about the differences in the naming of knitting wool thicknesses around the world that I've picked up off the net over the last year or so. America and the rest of the world have had differences in nearly everything from the begining. Measuring systems to yarn thicknesses. In my experience I've found that there is no true 'equivalent' between american worsted and english worsted. Typical American yarns: fingering (smallest, worked on American 2 or 3 (3 - 3.25 mm)) sport (twice as thick as fingering, worked on American 5, (3.75 mm)) worsted (twice as thick as sport, also called: 4 ply, American 8 (5mm)) bulky (twice as thick as worsted, American 10 (6 mm)) Typical European yarns: 2/3 ply (smallest, worked on 2.5 - 2.75 mm (American 1 or 2)) 4 ply (worked on 3.5 mm, American 4) 5 ply (worked on 3.75 mm, American 5) 8 ply (called Double Knitting, DK, Light Worsted, worked on 4 - 4.5 mm (American 6 or 7)) 12 ply (called Chunky, worked on 5.5 mm (American 9)) Ply originally referred to the thickness of yarn as the more plies in the yarn, the thicker it would be, however with modern spinning techniques and equipment is it easy to find one ply Icelandic type yarns that are thicker than 8 ply double knitting yarns. What do you do to solve this? Look at the recommended gauge and needles for that yarn. Make _sure_ you use mm measurements as some yarns use the U.K system where a #10 is smaller than a #3 (3.25 mm vs 6.5mm - American #3 vs #10.5). Usually if you have a fine yarn calling for a #10, you know they mean UK #10. If it calls for a 6, 7 or 8 however you have to be very careful as those are right where UK and American needles are the same. A UK 7 = American 7 = 4.5mm. Lastly, try the yarn at the recommended needlesize. If you don't like it, switch to a larger needle (looser texture) or a smaller needle (firmer texture) till you find one that you like. If there is no recommend needlesize, guess... If it's thick, start with an A9 or so, thin, an A5 and go from there. Now, back to the double knitting problem. The average DK yarn will be worked on American 6 or 7. This is RIGHT between an american sport (5) and the American worsted (8) so, with _some_ dk's you can push them up to a worsted, or down to a sport by switching needle sizes. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, thus the dk is _not_ an equivilent for either the sport or worsted, contrary to what some people will say. Personally I consider it a weight unto itself. There are several books that have information about yarns and their recommended needlesizes as well as yardage per skein. I have one available that if you send me all the information on the ball band, I can try and look it up to give you information about the yarn that might not be on the band (typically manufacturers will not put yardage/meterage on the band). Hope this helps. Most of this information comes from my experience as a crocheter, a knitter and a needlework shop owner. Not all of it may be 100% accurate as I am human, however I've double checked all my references. *main reference "Valuable Knitting Information for the Retailer" - - - - - - - - - Several knitters (yup, I found them and apparently we are mostly playing voyeur) have asked me to rewrite the email I have sent regarding 'double knitting yarn' and post it. So here goes. At the outset, let me say that over the many years I have been knitting, I have come to pretty much disregard the 'materials' section of commercial instructions. When I find something I want to knit, or something someone finds for me to knit for them, the hunts begins for a suitable yarn (for me), followed by good size (3-4 inches) gauge swatches on appropriate needles. I then examine these swatches and pick the one I like -- texture, look etc, and note the guage. Then the fun begins: I adjust (read REDESIGN) the commercial pattern to MY guage. This is a result of being an unabashed convert of Elizabeth Zimmermann. Her books convinced me years ago tha this adjustment was well within the realm of the ordinary mortal. Although her sweaters are one-piece, from the bottom up, the general techniques hold. There are in addition to her books several others that you might want to look at: A) One-Piece (in the round) 1. Knitting In The Old Way - P. Gibson-Roberts 2. Sweater Workshop - J. Fee B) Multi-Piece (flat knitting) 1. Sweater Design - M. Righetti 2. Sweater 101* - C. Brunette There are many others...these are just a few of my favorites. In addition, if you are not handy with a calculator, or your arithmetic is rusty, there are freeware, shareware and commercial programs for most platforms that will do it all for you. (My current favorite is Sweater 101, now in vers 2 [own but haven't yet played with] which was made available as an adjunct to the book named abouve, but not required. It prints out diagrams as well as wordy instructions and even estimates amount [in yards] of yarn for many of the classic types. It is available from Patternworks Inc, PO Box 1690, Poughkeepsie, NY 12601.) ALL USUAL DISCLAIMERS STAND !!!!! Okay -- now about the 'double knitting yarn' thing that UK publications are so fond of. First of all, forget everything your mother or grandmother (just a little sexism, all the men in my family knit!) ever told you about 'ply'...it ain't got a thing to do with yarn TYPE. Here's what some of the references I have of hand have to say about 'double knitting yarn': Montse Stanley (Handknitter's Handbook): "...From thin to thick, common names are: 1-ply, 2-ply, 3-ply, double knitting (DK), triple knitting (or Aran), double double-knitting (or chunky), extra chunky." June Hiatt (Principles of Knitting): "...What Americans call 'sport yarn' is somewhat thicker than fingering and is roughly equivalent to what the British refer to as 'jumper weight' (by which they mean sweater-weight). It come in two- and three-ply versions that are either firmly or softly spun. What the British call 'double-knitting' yarn is roughly equivalent to what Americans call 'Germantwon' a medium thick, somewhat softly spun worsted." Debby Robinson (Enclyclopedia of Knitting Techniques):"Double Knitting/Worsted...a very versatile medium weight yarn...In the UK it is the most commonly used yarn..." In my experience, the GAUGE given in the directions gives me the best clue. Here's Righetti (Knitting In Plain English): "CLASS A is fingering weight...usually worked at a gauge of 7 or more stitches per inch...on USA sizes 1,2,2... CLASS B is sport weight...usually worked around 6 stitched to the inch on...USA sizes 5 and 6... CLASS C is heavy weight...usually worked 4 to 5 1/2 stitches to the inch on...USA sizes 8 or 9... CLASS D is bulky weight...usually worked 4 or less stitches to the inch on rather large needles..." Note, Righetti is also the author of the 'Universal Yarn Finder, and you can find virtually any brand name yarn called for in it and then see what the appropriate substitutions might be. I also ignore her needle size suggestions pretty much. I know for example I get exactly 5 sts to the inch on size (USA) 7 needles with most 'worsted weights'. Which of course brings me to NEEDLE SIZES. There is a pretty good chart to help you determine where to begin, once you have picked a yarn, in 'The Perfect Fit' by C. Palmer. I assume the book is out of print so here is the chart (when the copyright folks arrest me, someone out there better post bond); YARN GROUPS, RESPECTIVE GAUGE & APPROXIMATE NEEDLE SIZE Sts Rows Approx Needle Group @ inch @ inch Size (USA) Yarn Type A 9 13-14 00,0 Light weight yarn 8.5 12-13 0,1 (Fingering yarn, 8 12 1,1 Baby yarn, 7.5 11 2,3 thin dress yarn) * 7 10 3,4 B 6.5 9 5,6 Medium Weight yarn * 6 8 6 (sport yarn) C 5.5 7 7 Knitting Worsted * 5 6.5-7 8 weight 4.5 6 9 ("4-ply") D 3 4 13 Extra Heavy Weight * 2.5 3 15 2 2.5 15 * next to entry indicates what the "average' knitter should use to get the ideal stitch/row proportion for a particular yarn group Now if you are doing crochet...but that's a different story. Hope this is some use to the invisible knitting community out there. - - - - - - - - - Differences in terminology and descriptions for Hand Knitting yarns are a fact of life, as are different languages. YARN SIZE To define yarn size you have to measure either: the weight of a specified length of the yarn. ( Weight per unit length system, e.g. Tex Count ). or: the length of a specified weight of yarn. ( Length per unit weight system, e.g. Metric Count used in Continental Europe ). In both systems the result is known as the Yarn Count. After decades of attempts at standardisation there is reasonable international consensus on two systems : Tex Count (Tex) : ( Universal System ) The weight in grammes of 1000 metres of yarn ( e.g. 450 Tex to 550 Tex "Double Knitting" yarn ). Metric Count (Nm) : ( European Continental System ) The number of kilometres per kilogramme of yarn. ( e.g. 2.22 Nm to 1.82 Nm "Double Knitting" yarn ) The weight per unit length ( Tex ) measurement does allow a comparison between yarns irrespective of the fibre used, construction, ply or production method. It will quickly tell you whether American 4 ply equals NZ 8 ply for example ( the two yarn weights and diameters would be fairly similar). However it does not tell you everything. Diameter is important and so is bulkiness, especially in handknitting. All this sounds fine but these measurements are really beyond the scope of the home knitter. The commercial textile industry, but not the domestic user, has special equipment to measure all these things. NEEDLE SIZES In view of this, Pandora's suggestion, that the _Needle Sizes_ are the real practical clue for the home knitter, is a very good one. Try to forget all the confusing names and plies and look at the recommended needle sizes and, of course, the knitting pattern. English, American and Metric Needle Sizes _seem_ to be universal (but there may well be some areas of the world where other measures and sizings are used ). Of the three common systems, Metric Size (needle diameter in millimetres) is clearly the most definitive. The diameter of a knitting needle can be easily measured whereas "Needle Size Number" requires some sort of gauge to measure the needle. GUIDE TO NEEDLE SIZES ( Common Systems ) METRIC AMERICAN ENGLISH Needle Needle Size Needle Size diameter in mm 9 15 OOO 8.5 13 OO 8 12 O 7.5 11 1 7 1O.5 2 6.5 1O 3 6 9 4 5.5 8 5 5 7 6 4.5 6 7 4 5 8 3.5 4 9 3.25 3 1O 3/2.75 2 11 2.5 1 12 2.25 O 13 2 OO 14 If you want to check these equivalents out for yourself, simply measure the diameter in millimetres ( Metric Needle Size ) of your own needles. Useful if the needle maker didn't put the number on or you don't know whether the number is English or American :-) :-) YARN TYPES As mentioned, there are no universal descriptions of Hand Knitting yarn types. However, DoubleKnit or Double Knitting yarn descriptions have achieved quite wide acceptance. The following list may be useful as guide to the use of the yarns widely described as Double Knitting and Triple Knitting. Needle Size METRIC AMERICAN ENGLISH DOUBLE KNITTING ( 8 ply ) 4 or 3.5 mm 5 or 4 8 or 9 TRIPLE KNITTING ( 12 ply ) 5.5 or 5 mm 8 or 7 5 or 6 The term "ply" really has little meaning in modern times. Historically it was used to indicate yarn size or thickness by the _number of threads_ twisted together to make the final yarn. The principle was that more component threads gave a larger resultant yarn size. In fact modern yarns may have only one or two components ( 1 or 2 ply ) to make a so-called "8 ply" Double Knitting yarn. The term Ply is therefore only another yarn description. It does not define the yarn size. - - - - - - - - - < Origin: Pandora's Box * Auckland * New Zealand >