Message #2104 To STEWART BERMAN 11-23-87 From DANIEL DOMAN Subject (R)A SURPRISE TO ME ANYHO --------------------------------------------------------------------------- stewart - DOS treats directories as files, so it is not surprising that you cannot have a file witht he same name as a subdirectory, but it was and is a surprise to me that DOS could treat to filenames with different extensions as the same object. daniel Message #2108 To MARK BORDAS 11-24-87 From BILL NORRIS Subject (R)LATTICE USERS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lattice seems to be a pretty solid compiler. I've only occasionally run into minor bugs, such as having to simplify a printf() statement ( break it up into 2 seperate calls ). It could be that there are some serious bugs, but I think that is a more remote possibility than with most other compilers. I've known a few programmers who on finding a program bug that won't go away, immediately blame the compiler, which more often than not is found to be due to something in their own program and not to a compiler bug. Message #2109 To STEWART BERMAN 11-24-87 From DAVE SIEGEL Subject (R)C COMPILERS LIBRARIES --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Windows 386 uses the same message structure as Windows 2.0, an extension of the Windows 1.4 structure. All large scale windowing systems use the same techniques. I think Microsoft's implementation is overly baroque, but I'm convinced that the basic premise is sound. Now Microsoft just needs to convince the rest of the world. Much of Windows complexity, in practice, stems from its attempt to push the chore of memory management from the OS to the programmer. Presentation Manager for OS2, which need not do this, should be a lot easier to program towards, although it has the same 'theoretical' complexity. -dms Message #2110 To ALL 11-25-87 From CRAIG TOMITA Subject QUICK-C BUG --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just unpacked my Microsoft Version 5 update and tried a few of my pet benchmarks. When I used Quick-C I found that one of the programs would not work properly. I was quite surprised since I have used this program for several years and it runs (unmodified) with a dozen C compilers. The bug appears to be when an element of a character array is compared to a character literal. Quick-C generates code for a WORD comparison (that may not mean anything to people who do not program in assembler) which is not correct for the situation. I will upload a small program that demonstrates the bug "qc-bug.c" (by the way the full compiler does not share the bug). Message #2113 To MARK BORDAS 11-26-87 From DANIEL DOMAN Subject (R)LATTICE USERS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- mark, it just goes to show you that there is no one and true solution to most problems. As a rule I have preferred using Lattice. In a lot of cases it generates tighter and faster code. I also have liked the fact the library source has always been available, and that they jump through all sorts of hoops to support people. In terms of support I am not referring to the "learning how to program" kind of stuff - which the DO politely render when needed, but the BIG project bug fix kind of thing. Lets face it: all products have bugs (we call the "features" at my company). If you are going to have a bug of some kind, its nice to know that Lattice will at least fix it VERY quickly. If you call up the Lattice BBS (LBBS), you will find that they have left up all sorts of messages including some that are frankly critical of Lattice. They deserve quite a lot of credit for leaving that sort of stuff up on their own BBS. As for bugs, I have been working with the Lattice for years and have not run accross any problems worth mentioning. I switched from 2.15 to 3.x because it offered all sorts of nice new features, not because of any problems. daniel Message #2114 To PAUL KESTEN 11-26-87 From BILL HOGAN Subject (R)LATTICE USERS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the alternative view. I admit I am skeptical about switching as evidenced by sticking with 2.15. But the upside of MSC sounds so attractive. I will keep tuned. Message #2118 To MARK BORDAS 11-28-87 From SAM CHIN Subject (R)LATTICE USERS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I used Lattice before MSC came out but immediately noticed that MSC was so much more Unix compatible than Lattice. About a year later, I got the first Lattice 3.0 release and it was so incredibly buggy, I threw it out. MSC's first release of their compiler was incredibly bug free and I have been happy with 4.0 too. Am now waiting for 5.0. Message #2154 To ALL 12-02-87 From DOMINICK SAMPERI Subject MSC AND QUICKC --------------------------------------------------------------------------- It seems that QuickC has some difficulty finding object files that are easily found by MSC 5.0. I wrote a trivial little graphics program that just draws a square, and it compiles, links, and runs fine with CL, but when I try QuickC it can't find any of the graphics functions like _setvideomode(), _lineto(), etc. I ran SETUP again, just to make sure, telling YES, include the graphics lib in the combined libs, but still no luck. BTW, a curious thing happens at the end of the SETUP installation. The first thing I did when I received MSC 5.0 is put write protect stickers on all of the floppies, but at the end of the installation script, right after it says it's going to build graphics.qlb, I get a write protect error message on the floppy. So I remove the write protect sticker and let it proceed, which it does, finishing with done! But I can't use graphics with QuickC??? Message #2208 To TONY ANDRIOTIS 12-11-87 From CHUNG SIN Subject (R)PUBLIC DOMAIN --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tony, For your personal evaluation, there is a Small-C compiler available. The compiler itself is written in C and the source code is also available. This is a first PD C compiler written by Ron Caine back in the 70's and enhanced by J. E. Hendrix in the 80's. A pretty solid package if your requirement is not that high. The believe iis available in the PC RocklaBBS. P.S. dBASE is written in C though. Message #2215 To TONY ANDRIOTIS 12-12-87 From LORA FRISCH Subject (R)PUBLIC DOMAIN --------------------------------------------------------------------------- C is not a vitamin and may not be better for you than Basic. I like C because I found I can express my programming ideas best in that language. Message #2216 To ALL 12-12-87 From JOHN HAYNES Subject QUICK C VS TURBO C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I plan on buying either Quick C or Turbo C and hope that maybe I can get a little advice. I was leaning towards the Quick C because it is supposed to be compatable either other Microsoft languages. I use Qick Basic extensively. However, there seems to be much more support by the BB's for Turbo C. Is that because Turbo has been on the market longer? I would welcome comments about this. Message #2217 To JOHN HAYNES 12-13-87 From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)QUICK C VS TURBO C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Turbo C was released about 3 months before Quick C , but in the future you will probably see more support for Quick C. I would reccomend QC over TC. Remember, Microsoft developed C 5.0 and Quick C for OS/2 as well as DOS. They have a strong commitment for continuing to develop C in the future. Rick Message #2218 To JOHN HAYNES 12-13-87 From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)QUICK C VS TURBO C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS. If you have used Quick Basic 4.0, you will have no trouble in using Quick C. They have kept them quite simaler. They have included a section in their documentation on mixed language development. (ie. using both QB and QC code together in 1 program!) Good Luck! Rick Message #2219 To ALL 12-13-87 From DAVID BUKSBAUM Subject FIELD INPUT ROUTINES --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Does any one know of a good Field Input Routines that allows editing, and length settings? David Message #2225 To ALL 12-17-87 From DAVID BUKSBAUM Subject HELP --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I need a good data entry routine that allows for length, editing features, and a help key Please let me know of any such source code David Message #2229 To TONY ANDRIOTIS 12-20-87 From ALBERT STEIN Subject (R)C CONFERENCE --------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's not that I keep waiting for the next high in hi-tech, but the relative worth of the product vs. what I have now. To double my transfer rate is not worth $200 to me now, but to get an eight-fold improvement would easily be worth $500. Time is money. Message #2234 To TONY ANDRIOTIS 12-26-87 From SAM CHIN Subject (R)C CONFERENCE --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've seen US Robotics 9600 HST's being advertised for $450. I bought the one I am using now for about $600. Message #2238 To MARK GARVIN 12-28-87 (Rcvd) From BILL NORRIS Subject (R)MAKE --------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's not a MAKE for Epsilon, but a MAKE written by the same company ( Lugaru ) that sells both. The number of Dan's board is 427-1805. Message #2240 To MARK GARVIN 12-29-87 (Rcvd) From DANIEL DOMAN Subject (R)MAKE --------------------------------------------------------------------------- mark, Epsilon's Make is "truer" than that of MS. I guess they included it with their editor because they thought it necessary, desireable, helpful, or all of the above. I know that people who are used to UNIX versions of make much prefer Epsilon's. Frankly MS-Make is pretty crappy when compared to "all the rest". daniel Message #2241 To MARK GARVIN 12-29-87 (Rcvd) From DANIEL DOMAN Subject (R)MAKE --------------------------------------------------------------------------- mark, yes Indeed I have my own BBS up and running with 3 lines active and more to follow. I have active OS/2 and CLANGuage conferences as well. By all means give it a call. The number is: DannySoft BBS 212-427-1805 Message #2244 To ALL 01-01-88 From ALBERT STEIN Subject CPU CHECKER --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just u/led CHIPS.ARC, with .asm source for MASM 5.0 and a driver in C for MSC 5.0. Slightly hacked version for 5.0 fans. Enjoy!! Message #2248 To ALL 01-05-88 From RICK STANLEY Subject C-SIG MEETING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- TO ALL C PROGRAMMERS!: Reed Koch from Microsoft Corp. will be the speaker at the next meeting of the NYPC C-SIG. Reed is the Programming Manager for Microsoft's C 5.0 Compiler. Although the topic has not been announced, we expect he will be talking about Quick C, C 5.0 and OS/2. The C-SIG will meet Thursday January 7th at the NYU Main Building, 100 Washington Square East, on the 4th floor. Look for a 'C' marked on one of the classrooms. The meeting starts at 6:30 PM. For last minute information, please call the NYPC voice Bulletin Board at (212) 533-NYPC. The 3 letter code for the C-SIG is "CSG". All are welcome! 'C' you then! Rick Stanley Message #2261 To ALL 01-17-88 From DAVID AWERBUCH Subject VM CMS C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Does anyone know of any C debugging tools for use with C under VM/CMS, particularly VM/SP Rel 4? Anything at all sorely appreciate. Dave Message #2262 To ALL 01-18-88 From GLENN THOMAS Subject TURBO C PROBLEMS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Has anyone experienced any problmes using Turbo C 1.00 and PC-DOS 3.3, such as locking up the system, or "Internal errors" reported by the compiler. This has only been happening to me when I am using DOS 3.3, but everything seems to work fine when I use DOS 3.1. Message #2289 To DAVID AWERBUCH 01-25-88 From DAVID GROSS Subject (R)VM CMS C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are you refering to WatC (Waterloo) or Lattice? -DEGross Message #2290 To DAVID GROSS 01-25-88 From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)MSC AND QUICKC --------------------------------------------------------------------------- C 5.0 and QC while doing the setup, will write a tempoary file to the floppy and delete it when it's finished. It does not destroy any files on the disk. If you want, when setup is building the libraries, swap the MSC disk with a formatted blank disk. It doesn't know one disk from another. After building the libraries, it doesn't need the MSC disk for anything else. Rick Message #2296 To DAVID GROSS 01-26-88 From CHUNG SIN Subject (R)PUBLIC DOMAIN --------------------------------------------------------------------------- True, Dave, but it is always fun to have the compiler source code at your disposal. You can play with it as you wanted as well as you know where you are getting into too.' You know all those ropes that one will create when program in C. Sin Message #2299 To ALL 01-26-88 From DANIEL DOMAN Subject MSC 5.0 OPTIMIZER BUG 1 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Be VERY careful when using the MSC5 compiler. The optimizer is generating a LOT of bad code in places. In some cases you can disable enough of the optimizer to force it to generate good code, but in other cases one must simply rewrite code to trick the compiler into doing the write thing. The problems appear to be with large memory models. All C code was compiler with "Alfu" memory model. In the next two messages I will show two code samples that generated bad code. The samples are simplified extracts that demonstrate a compiler bug.. Message #2300 To ALL 01-26-88 From DANIEL DOMAN Subject MSC 5.0 OPTIMIZER BUG 2 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- This demonstrates a bug in the loop optimizer. The cast to a CHAR * is what confused the optimizer... The code is large memory model compiled with "Alfu". The bug is correctable by disabling the loop optimizer. #include #define GETSEGPTR(xseg,xoff) ((char *) (((long) xseg <<16) | xoff)) #define WHATEVER 20 void fortran badcode(buffer,unpointer) char *buffer; unsigned *unpointer; { char *ptr; unsigned segval, get_a_segval(); int i; segval=get_a_segval(); for(i=0; i< WHATEVER ; i++) { do_something( GETSEGPTR(segval,0)); segval+=16; } } It does not matter what the called routines do, The compiler does not generate the code to add 16 (seg size) to the variable SEGVAL.. Below is the asm that the compiler generates.... *** 000024 be 14 00 mov si,20 *** 000027 81 46 fe 40 01 add WORD PTR [bp-2],320 ;segval $L20000: ;|*** { ; Line 20 ;|*** do_something(GETSEGPTR(segval,0)); ; Line 21 *** 00002c ff 76 f6 push WORD PTR [bp-10] *** 00002f ff 76 f4 push WORD PTR [bp-12] *** 000032 9a 00 00 00 00 call FAR PTR _do_something *** 000037 83 c4 04 add sp,4 ;|*** segval+=16; ;|*** } ; Line 23 *** 00003a 4e dec si *** 00003b 75 ef jne $L20000 ;|*** } In this above loop, segval is never changes at all... Nice huh? Message #2301 To ALL 01-26-88 From DANIEL DOMAN Subject MSC 5.0 OPTIMIZER BUG 3 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The code sample below is even more terrifying since the compiler is not generating badly optimized code so much as it is just generating BAD code. Below is a sample of a C routine that the compiler will kill you on. This code was compiled with "Alfu". The only way to correct the compiler was to disable intrinsics, any other optimizer flag made no difference. #include void fortran badcode(buffer,unpointer) char *buffer; unsigned *unpointer; { char *ptr, *getaptr(); ptr=getaptr(); *unpointer = strlen(ptr); } The assignment of strlen() to *numpointer will generate bad code. It does not really matter if numptr is an unsigned int or an int by the way. Below is the asm that the compiler will generate... ;|*** ;|*** *unpointer = strlen(ptr); ; Line 13 *** 000018 c4 5e 06 les bx,DWORD PTR [bp+6] ;unpointer *** 00001b c4 7e fc les di,DWORD PTR [bp-4] ;ptr *** 00001e b9 ff ff mov cx,-1 *** 000021 33 c0 xor ax,ax *** 000023 f2 repnz *** 000024 ae scasb *** 000025 f7 d1 not cx *** 000027 49 dec cx *** 000028 26 89 0f mov WORD PTR es:[bx],cx ;|*** } In the asm above, you will note that it generates an LES twice in a row. The value loaded into ES by the first LES is clobbered by the second LES. The last instruction to load CX into ES:[BX] is invalid since ES does not NECESSARILY point to the correct data segment. If the segment value of the pointer happens to be equal to SS, the code will work, but the compiler should not assume this, especially since the code was generated with "Alfu" - which means among other things, ES!=DS.... No combination of optimizer switches could get the compiler to generate the right code for this. The routine had to be modified to load the strlen() value into an intermediate location, and from there into the final target. Under OS/2 bugs like this make themselves know fairly quickly, A bad segment value is trapped instantly by the kernel. Such Bugs are are much more difficult to locate under MS-DOS. The above bugs in the MSC 5.0 compiler can be reproduced in the OS/2 SDK compiler < More - C(ontinuous) Y/N > Y as well............. The 5.0 compiler is nice, and some of the new features are very handy. When the optimizer works, it generates wonderful code, but when its bad - its VERY bad. It appears as though MSC5.0 was rushed to market before it was completely debugged. Message #2302 To GLENN THOMAS 01-27-88 (Rcvd) From EUGENE COLQUITT Subject (R)TURBO C PROBLEMS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Run README.COM, found on the IDE disk (disk 1). Message #2303 To JUDYTH POWERS 01-27-88 (Rcvd) From EUGENE COLQUITT Subject (R)TURBO C PROBLEMS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The number for Borland's order desk is (800) 543-7543 from here in Southern California. I don't know if it is reachable from other areas. Message #2304 To DANIEL DOMAN 01-29-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)MSC 5.0 OPTIMIZER BUG --------------------------------------------------------------------------- What was the nature of the C 5.0 optimizing bug? Did it concatenate some process that needed to be recursive or what? niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2305 To DANIEL DOMAN 01-29-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)MSC 5.0 OPTIMIZER BUG --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sounds like Microsoft in their haste to emulate Borland, has taken to issuing buggy versions as X.0 and "fixed" versions as x.1 .... The new, old maxim "Never buy a point zero version of a compiler ..." is coming true. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2306 To ALL 01-29-88 From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject RANDY SWAN --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is Rany Swan lurking out there somewhere? If so, call me at PCSI ... 212-475-8977, please. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2309 To ALL 01-29-88 From DOMINICK SAMPERI Subject MSC QUESTION --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is it possible to change the mode for file handle 1 (stdout) so that cr/lf translation is NOT done? I want to write a program that can be used like this: 'prog > file', yet I do not want cr/lf translation while writing to file. Thanks in advance. Message #2312 To DOMINICK SAMPERI 01-29-88 (Rcvd) From ALBERT STEIN Subject (R)MSC QUESTION --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Use the 'b' option of fopen. Ex: fptr = fopen ("WHATEVER.DAT","wb"); Or you can change a global variable. Where's your docs?? Message #2315 To ALL 01-29-88 From LORA FRISCH Subject TURBOC 1.5 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The graphics library is a lot of fun. I have a Hercules card and I hate to write in assembly so I am very happy. There are now calls gettext and puttext that can be used to save and restore screens. One bug in gettext, if the buffer you allocate is too small the PC hangs and you have to reboot.O The phone company is putting new lines on the street where I ³live hopefully this will clear up all the noise ßI ex³nce, you don't k³now what a struggle is been to write anÔything! Message #2316 To EUGENE COLQUITT 01-29-88 (Rcvd) From JUDYTH POWERS Subject (R)TURBO C PROBLEMS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Eugene. Still no sign of 1.5, so I'll call them on Monday. Wish me luck! -- Judyth Message #2319 To ALBERT STEIN 01-30-88 (Rcvd) From DOMINICK SAMPERI Subject (R)MSC QUESTION --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been going through my docs, but cannot find how to change the mode of stdout to binary (no translation). Using "b" in fopen only works for a named file, no good. What I want to do is write binary data to file via prog > file. What my program generates and sends to stdout I want to go to file, without any cr/lf translation. Message #2320 To DOMINICK SAMPERI 01-30-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)MSC QUESTION --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you are using Microsoft, you can use the function setmode(handle,mode) where handle is stdout, and mode is either O_TEXT or O_BINARY. O_BINARY will set stdout to untranslated mode, and O_TEXT will reset stdout to translated. If you have C 5.0 or QC, there is an example in the library reference book which uses stdin. Let me know if this helps. Rick Message #2327 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 01-31-88 (Rcvd) From DANIEL DOMAN Subject (R)MSC 5.0 OPTIMIZER BUG --------------------------------------------------------------------------- niki well I think that the code sample that I showed demonstrates the msc5 optimizer bug. In one case the optimizer did not understand what was going on inside the loop and so it just optimized it all away. I have no problem with an optimizing compiler tossing out code that is useless or unreachable, but thats something that deserves a BIG warning to the programmer. In the second case the compiler just generated BAD code. I have no idea what the compiler thought was going on, but any time a compiler generates TWO "LES" statements in a row (load segment and offset), loading "ES" each time, it is pretty clear that the compiler is confused. daniel Message #2328 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 01-31-88 (Rcvd) From DANIEL DOMAN Subject (R)MSC 5.0 OPTIMIZER BUG --------------------------------------------------------------------------- niki, the story that was told to me is that Microsoft made a marketing decision to publish "the fastest" optimizing compiler on the market. They focused specifically on the benchmarks that most people tend to write and run. They have apparently known about some of these bugs for some time. Its one thing to build a compiler that generates super-fast, super-optimized code, but its another thing to build a compiler that can generate super-fast, super-optimized code that WORKS. Most of the bugs that my company have found have involved segment handling. Small model programs will fair better under MSC5.0 Its really too bad, because its a nice compiler, and shows great promise. I especially like the inclusion of "intrinsics" - they can mean real formidable speed gains. In one week I wasted an hour or so every day tracing through a bug that turned out to be compiler generated. I make enough bugs on my own without having the compiler add its own! daniel < More - C(ontinuous) Y/N > Y Message #2329 To DOMINICK SAMPERI 01-31-88 (Rcvd) From DANIEL DOMAN Subject (R)MSC 5.0 OPTIMIZER BUG --------------------------------------------------------------------------- dominick, in the past, Microsoft has not been very quick to update bugs in their compiler products unless they were crippling or really embarassing. They updated the Fortran 4.0 compiler 6 months after its release - but the orginal release was abysmally buggy. Microsoft has not indicated when - or if, they will update 5.0 version. When I reported one really bad bug to them, they said, "oh yeah, we've known about that one for a while". Great, just the words that I wanted to hear after wasting an hour. If enough people yell and scream they will update the compiler. I like the new version (or at any rate WANT to like it), and I am hoping that they will fix these problems. Message #2330 To ALBERT STEIN 02-01-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)RANDY SWAN --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm waiting for an Omti from Randy Swan, but he's been sick. My wife kept me occupied all weekend with "white" sales so I have not had too much withdrawal symptoms. No I hadn't considered the Perstor cards, what can you tell me about them? niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2331 To DANIEL DOMAN 02-01-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)MSC 5.0 OPTIMIZER BUG --------------------------------------------------------------------------- So! I should have known that you would know how to make Microsoft's new C optimizer "burp"! Hope they find the bug in time for you to save some hair pulling. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2332 To DANIEL DOMAN 02-01-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)MSC 5.0 OPTIMIZER BUG --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Too bad about Microsoft's decision to go for speed the navy way! "Full speed ahead, and damn the torpedoes/bugs ....!" niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2333 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 02-01-88 (Rcvd) From ALBERT STEIN Subject (R)RANDY SWAN --------------------------------------------------------------------------- All I know about the Perstor cards is second hand. Some BBS operators swear by them. They use a recording technique dubbed ARLL to increase storage 90 to 100% over a standard non-RLL controller. Works with many MFM drives but NOT my Seagate 225s, they're too old. Call Richard Driggers at Sparta BBS, 201-729-9409 for more info. Message #2334 To ALL 02-01-88 From RICK STANLEY Subject C-SIG BBS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- A N O U N C I N G ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ³ C - S I G B B S ³ ³ Operated by the NYPC C-SIG ³ ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ (212) 473-2744 2400-N-8-1 A BBS dedicated to the C Programming Language. The bulletin board is run by the New York Personal Computer Users Group, C Special Interest Group. This single user system is run on Daniel Doman's dBBS software, and is available 24 hours. Several special interest conferences are available as well as the main conference. If you have ANY question on a C related topic, or have Public Domain source code to share, or are looking for utilities, this is the place to be. 'C' you on the C-SIG BBS! Message #2336 To DOMINICK SAMPERI 02-01-88 (Rcvd) From DANIEL DOMAN Subject (R)MSC QUESTION --------------------------------------------------------------------------- dominick, there are two ways to write to stdout in binary mode. You can set the mode bit in the file structure pointed to by the FILE pointer. This is not too hard, but VERY compiler specific (even version specific). The best thing to do is to open "CON" - which is usually what stdout really is, and the rather than printf()'ing your output, j/·ust fprintf() your output to the FILE pointer returned by fopen(). If you ever traced down through the code, you would find that printf really just resolves to fprintf() to stdout. daniel Message #2338 To ALL 02-03-88 From JACK SPIEGEL Subject C COMPILERS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just borrowed two (2) C compilers. One is called WARE and seems to have some kind of editor, which I am trying to figure how to use. I also got LATTRICE (?compiler. If anyone c can give me assistance using these systems I would appreciate it. . I am reading a book on C and trying to learn it. I know Pl/1 anBASIC. So far I have the general idea, but I'm trying to figure out how to compile it. All for now! Message #2339 To ALBERT STEIN 02-04-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)RANDY SWAN --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Evidently if you use seagate 225's as D drive and run dos 3.3 format listing every cylinder there is a hesitation on, and then low level format entering the cylinder numbers of the questionable cylinders into the table of bad tracks, then the drives work ok. It seems that some tracks that will work for standard use are two "thin" for RLL use. This method maps them out. Also the 225's are a little flakey as bootable disks, when run on RLL, but as D run better. Also, the drive should be as warm as it is going to get when you low level format, as temperature has an effect. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2340 To JACK SPIEGEL 02-04-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)C COMPILERS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lattice is a very good compiler (though I'm a Microsoft nut) . You should come to the C-SIG meeting tonight (Thursday) at NYU Main Building, 100 Washington Sq. East, on the 4th floor. Look for a room marked with a 'C'. The meeting starts at 6:30. The speaker is Cris Skelly, a very excelent speaker! You will find all the gurus of C in atendence, and can get lots of assistance. If you want, you can ask for me (Rick Stanley) or talk to the SIG head, Randall Swan. C you later. Rick Message #2344 To JACK SPIEGEL 02-10-88 (Rcvd) From LORA FRISCH Subject (R)C COMPILERS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Jack, see you at the Amalgamated meeting next week. I have TurboC Which C book are you ßreading? Message #2345 To LORA FRISCH 02-11-88 (Rcvd) From JACK SPIEGEL Subject (R)C COMPILERS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- HI I'LL SEE YOU ON THE 18th. I AM READING 'UNDERSTANDING C' BY BRUCE H. HUNTER, PUBLISHED BY SYBEX. I KNOW PL/1 AND BASIC AND THIS BOOK USES THESE LANGUAGES AS EXAMPLES. IT ALSO MENTIONS LATTICE. PS I JUST GOT A PASCAL COMPILER, AND AN ASSEMBLER FOR 8086. TAKE CARE, JACK Message #2346 To ALL 02-12-88 From ERROL CABY Subject DIAL FUNCTION --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Does any one know how to use the dial function in C from within a C program to access data from other UNIX systems. Message #2347 To JACK SPIEGEL 02-14-88 (Rcvd) From ALBERT STEIN Subject (R)C COMPILERS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If the WARE compiler is envoked with C88, and the editor is SEE, you have the DeSmet C compiler. If this is true and you want to use it let me know and I'll give you the run-down. DeSmet is a fast compiler that produces tight code. Currently I'm favoring TurboC. Message #2348 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 02-14-88 (Rcvd) From ALBERT STEIN Subject (R)RANDY SWAN --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the tip on not using the 225s as a bootable disk when using RLL. Just hooked up a second, spare, 225 as a drive D with an expansion unit from Western Systems. I think I found the perfect disk surface test program. It's called HDTEST and if it's not here yet, I'll u/l it. It does a most through test of the disk, much better than Mace, or Norton's DT. Takes about 6-7 hours (yes hours) to test a 20MB drive. Bypasses possible ECC corrections and moves data as necessary. Message #2349 To ALBERT STEIN 02-16-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)RANDY SWAN --------------------------------------------------------------------------- WOW! Sounds like a killer disk test program ..... I'll try it next time I have 7 hours to spare. Right now I didn't like the results from my ST225 under RLL, so have put it in mothballs, awaiting another motherboard, which shall house my MIDI machine. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2350 To ALBERT STEIN 02-19-88 (Rcvd) From JACK SPIEGEL Subject (R)C COMPILERS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- oh wow! I think this is what I have. I am interested in finding out more about it. It is too early in the morning to give it much thought now, but I will re-read your letter later. Message #2351 To ALL 02-19-88 From MARK SEIDEN (SYSOP) Subject VITAMIN C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi All, Is anyone actively using Vitamin C? If so, would you be interested in joining a conference dedicated to this subject? Please leave me a message here or on THE BOSS dBBS (201-568-7293). Mark Message #2352 To JACK SPIEGEL 02-19-88 (Rcvd) From ALBERT STEIN Subject (R)C COMPILERS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Desmet compiler was one of the first available for the PC. Up until TurboC and QuickC, I don't think it had much competition in the way of speed of compile, and tightness of code. I wrote a word processing system with it - using their large-case (model) package. If you need help in running it, let me know. I can't help you with See though, I never used it myself. Message #2353 To ERROL CABY 02-20-88 From LORA FRISCH Subject (R)DIAL FUNCTION --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am really curious, I have never heard of the dial function. I am only aware of such thing as cu, to call a remote system, and uucp to copy files from a remote system. Message #2354 To ALL 02-20-88 From CHRIS NOYES Subject RECORDS & TAPES DB --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------NOTICE TO ALL USERS!!-------------------- A NEW RECORDS AND TAPES DATABASE SYSTEM IS AVAILABLE ON THIS BBS. IT'S CALLED RNT AND CAN BE FOUND IN THE THREE FILES RNTDOC.ARC (DOCUMENTATION), RNTPROG.ARC (PROGRAMS), AND RNTDATA.ARC (DEFAULT DATA FILES). IT'S FAST AND IT'S POWERFUL I AM RELEASING THIS PROGRAM TO BETA TEST IT. YOU ARE FREE TO USE IT AS YOU WISH. IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS ON THIS PROGRAM, PLEASE LEAVE ME A MESSAGE ON THIS BBS. OR CALL CALL ME AT (718) 625-2262. YOUR COMMENTS ARE CRUCIAL TO FINDING ANY EXISTING PROBLEMS AND IMPROVING IT BEFORE I RELEASE IT AS SHAREWARE RNT'S FEATURES INCLUDE: * EASY TO USE * KEEPS UP TO 5000 RECORDS ON LINE AT ANY ONE TIME * HANDLES UP TO 28 SONGS PER RECORD OR TAPE * FAST POWERFUL QUERY AND LISTING FUNCTIONS * PRINTS SEVERAL TYPES OF REPORTS AND ROLODEX CARDS * FAST AND POWERFUL < More - C(ontinuous) Y/N > Y IF YOU HAVE A LARGE RECORD OR TAPE COLLECTION, GIVE IT A TRY!! THANKS CHRISTOPHER J. NOYES Message #2356 To ALL 02-26-88 From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject CAJUN C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where is everybody on this conference? I just peeked in to see if you geniuses had discovered the secret of HUGE pointer arithmatic, wand what do I find. REAL APPLICATIONS! Useful programs being discussed. Your going to give programmers a bad name. Where is the "theory", the arcane code, the hidden tricks and traps, the pure garbled syntax etc? (Whew!) Deal me in, I'm ordering a legit C 5.0 with all the trimmings. niki david shrode (grandpa) ps large and huge pointers don't take to subtraction easily. At least with correct results, unless you know a couple of tricks about casting the results of unsigned intergers. Sounds a little like fishing. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2357 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 02-26-88 (Rcvd) From JUDYTH POWERS Subject (R)CAJUN C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Niki, Count me in, too! Through great luck (via our friend JL), I'm getting C 5.0 as well. I still want to learn Turbo thoroughly before I move on, just to have that knowledge under my belt. I recently receivedmy Turbo C 1.5 upgrade and it has all the nifty graphics stuff that I hoped it would. -- JP Message #2358 To ALL 02-26-88 From ALBERT STEIN Subject MSC BUGS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- When will MS get off their duffs and fix their $@#!^ bugs! At last count its 2:1 bugs with TC now my choice. Message #2359 To SYSOP 02-29-88 From ALBERT STEIN Subject PROZ.ARC --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The file PROZ.ARC, labeled to allow Zmodem for the PCPLUS, only works for 2.4.2 as far as I can tell. Message #2360 To JUDYTH POWERS 02-29-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)CAJUN C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quick! Compile me a graphic in Turbo-C just to keep me from eye-ball hunger pains. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2361 To JUDYTH POWERS 02-29-88 (Rcvd) From NEIL ROSSI Subject (R)CAJUN C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just got my 1.5 update today. Only took 3 weeks, too, from when I ordered! Guess Borland is improving. Have heard much about the improved graphics interface and am looking forward to trying it out, but will have to wait until I can get my new disk and controller installed. Message #2362 To ALBERT STEIN 03-01-88 (Rcvd) From JUDYTH POWERS Subject (R)MSC BUGS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I happend to be speaking with a commercial developer the other day and asked him which compiler he used. He wanted to upgrade to MSC 5.0 from 4.0, but (in addition to the little insects) it compiled larger and slower! Ah, well. Maybe when the get the bugs out . . . . -- Judyth Message #2363 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 03-01-88 (Rcvd) From JUDYTH POWERS Subject (R)CAJUN C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, it won't be quick, but as soon as I'm done with this reviewing project, will do. Message #2364 To NEIL ROSSI 03-01-88 (Rcvd) From JUDYTH POWERS Subject (R)CAJUN C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been working on a paying project (publisher's book review), so haven't had time to play with TC's graphics. But I did manage to compile and run the demo. As soon as this project is done, off I go! Let me know what you're doing with it when you're up and running. -- Judyth Message #2365 To JUDYTH POWERS 03-01-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)CAJUN C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judyth, I was quite happy to receive the box that MS sent me with my C 5.0 upgrade. I gleefully tore through the box, looking at the binders and the manuals and more binders and more manuals. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that they'd left something vital out of the package. Needless to say, they are now (hopefully) winging their way to me after I called them. MS was very embarassed about the mistake. OBTW, in case you haven't guessed... They forgot to ship the diskettes. Ah, yes, Microsoft... Ain't they grand? BMC Message #2366 To ALL 03-02-88 From JOE DERFLINGER Subject DATA BASE CODE --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone who knows of any code for data base applications (I use Turbo C) With application I mean routines to add, delete, edit, sort, print save, read with a general record format. Am I talking commercial product or is something like this on the boards. Code like this would be useful and could be used in a buisness like mine. But I really have not come accross anything like this. Any help or suggestion. I program out of interest not for a living, so I am really not ready to put a lot of money into it. Message #2367 To BEN COHEN 03-02-88 (Rcvd) From BILL NORRIS Subject (R)CAJUN C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- That was Microsoft's first attempt to remove the bugs from 5.0. Guess they got a bit carried away... Message #2368 To JUDYTH POWERS 03-02-88 (Rcvd) From NEIL ROSSI Subject (R)CAJUN C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually, I got tired of this update glaring at me from way up on my bookshelf, so I installed it last night and compiled the demo. Very impressive. I hope to have fun with this. I've already got a couple of projects that have been on the back burner because they were too much of a pain to do with 1.0. Message #2370 To BILL NORRIS 03-03-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)CAJUN C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- No. It's more like they SHOULD be carried away. Actually, I think it was more like their third or fourth attempt at removing bugs because the previous attempts have been SO successful. BMC Message #2371 To JUDYTH POWERS 03-03-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject DEVELOPERS C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MS 5.0 is really for OS/2, under which the performance is better. Actually I think it is 5.01 that comes with the OS/2 developers kit. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2372 To JUDYTH POWERS 03-03-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)CAJUN C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Will watch for your graphical compile! niki david shrode 9grandpa) Message #2373 To BILL NORRIS 03-03-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject TOTAL DEBUG --------------------------------------------------------------------------- So, Microsoft removed the bugs from 5.0 and that left nothing but the manuals for poor Ben Cohen! This could revolutionize upgrades! Just send a new manual every year with a few more instructions! niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2374 To ALL 03-03-88 From STEVE DOSSICK Subject SUGGESTION --------------------------------------------------------------------------- HELLO, COULD SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME ABOUT A GOOD BOOK TO TEACH MS C (NOT QUICK C, I MEAN THE BIG $500 PACKAGE) THANX STEVE DOSSICK Message #2375 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 03-04-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)TOTAL DEBUG --------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's ok. The thick plottens... Yesterday, I received a package from MS. It had my disks and I started to install it. I got up to the "Compiler" disk and it couldn't read the disk. I tried DIRing the disk in A:, in B:, and still nothing. Then I used TE (for the Copy II PC Option Board) and discovered... Nothing... Absolutely no data written anywhere on the disk. I knew they were having some problems debugging the compiler, but this is getting a little ridiculous. BMC Message #2377 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 03-04-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Microsoft 5.0 IS NOT FOR OS/2! It is only for DOS. The next update 5.1 or 5.01 will be for both OS/2 and DOS. I resent the cheap shots being taken at Microsoft. They have put more effort into the development of C than any other company. As in any extensive software package, there are going to be a few bugs that will slip through the tests. (Microsofts alpha and beta tests are quite extensive) They respond well to the bugs and are presently working on the corrections. If you examine all the bugs encountered in Turbo C, you will see much more serious errors which took 6 months to correct at a cost of $33.00 to the registered users. How can you release a floating point package that is completely useless? If you have used Quatro, you have seen another Borland product which is useless without extensive bug corrections. Will we have to wait 6 months for the corrections also? Why does everyone concentrate on the negative aspects of Microsoft, < More - C(ontinuous) Y/N > Y and ignore the advances they have made in the industry? Give credit to them for their efforts. Remember, they are the ones that designed OS/2, a giant leap in PC operating systems. Flaming yours, Rick Message #2378 To RICK STANLEY 03-04-88 (Rcvd) From DAVE SIEGEL Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick, relative to the various flavors of Unix available for the 286 for some years now, OS/2 is a rather modest "leap" forward. If you compare OS/2 to MS-DOS, it looks good, but that's like putting on a straight jacket to enjoy that feeling of relief when you take it off. Calm down, Rick. Microsoft has been exceptionally reluctant to publicly reveal bugs in its compiler productsc¬, and certainly less willing to publicly distribute patches than that "other" compiler company. Personally, I hope the battle continues -- it can only help _me_! -dms P.S. Do you have a heavy investment in Microsoft stock? Message #2379 To RICK STANLEY 03-04-88 (Rcvd) From ALBERT STEIN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- What floating-point bugs in TC 1.0?? My place was using it all the time for double-float arithmetic (small/medium models.) OK, so MicroSoft is a large company that has helped move mountains in PCdom. So how come some programs using structures, public domain ones at that, would choke using QuickC but not TC? There was nothing strange in them either! I encountered other problems in QuickC, too main to bother with it. For a while I was compiling under both TC and QC - I preferred the QC environment - but encountered too many bugs in QC. Message #2380 To JUDYTH POWERS 03-04-88 (Rcvd) From LORA FRISCH Subject TURBOC GRAPHICS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Judy, have you had a chance to do any graphics yet? I have just begun exploring, nothing thrilling to look at, graphed a cardioid. I have never written in viewports before and have not yet done anything interesting in multiple viewports. Have you tried it? Message #2381 To DAVE SIEGEL 03-05-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The patches are available to anyone who contacts Microsoft and requests them. It would be a great expense for MSC to send out new disks to everyone who purchased their compiler everytime the make an update. Behind the scenes they are working very hard to improve the quality of their product. If you have Lattice, you know that this is true for their compiler also. Can Borland say the same? I think not. I am not an employee of Microsoft, nor do I own any stock in the company. I am, however, commited to using their product. Rick Message #2382 To ALBERT STEIN 03-05-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The floating point bugs are well documented, although I don't have the specifics in front of me. I do know that they are very unreliable. What struct bugs have you encountered in QC? I am not aware of them. Send me some examples of the code, nad I will take a look. Also, tell me specificly what bugs you have encountered in QC. Rick Message #2383 To LORA FRISCH 03-06-88 (Rcvd) From JUDYTH POWERS Subject (R)TURBOC GRAPHICS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, Lora, I haven't yet had to the chance to explore the Turbo C graphics capabilities. I'm working on a project that's taking all my free time these days and I've got all sorts of things around here these days that I need to install and play with. (Sigh) But being pretty much of a novice, I'm interested in what you've done. Tell me, what is a cardioid (heart-shape?) and what are viewports? -- Judyth Message #2384 To RICK STANLEY 03-06-88 (Rcvd) From JUDYTH POWERS Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick, Borland can say the same. I've had very good experiences using their products and getting fixes and answers when necessary. It's us - the consumers - that benefit from the "battle" of the compilers. (And MS and Borland don't seem to mind all the press and attention they get as a result.) -- Judyth Message #2386 To BEN COHEN 03-06-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)TOTAL DEBUG --------------------------------------------------------------------------- You may have the first bug-free compiler ever released by Microsoft! Never mind that it doesn't work, as an empty disk is hard to read on a 360K drive. Look at all the time you saved not compiling this weekend! niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2387 To RICK STANLEY 03-06-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry if we offended your loyalty to Microsoft. We just "tease" about all the big megabuck companies. What with all the interlinking of obj code from all the diff Microsoft packages, most big time programmers have had to buy the 5.0 and OS/2 types already got 5.1 with developers kit. Simmer down, we will continue to poke fun at everybody, maybe even you. There are a lot of good programmers around, and they all like to show off by pointing out what they have found out about a particular compiler. I don't think that Microsoft will mind the chidding. niki david shrode (grandpa) ps You arn't an official Microsoft spy are you? Message #2388 To RICK STANLEY 03-06-88 (Rcvd) From DAVE CAMPBELL Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think the comments here at Microsoft have not been "cheal Shots". If anything, they are too forgiving. I have MSC 4.0 and have used it for 1-2 years. Good complier, not the fastest, not the tightest code but ROCK solid. Almost no bugs and those that I found were in the run-time library. I ordered MSC 5.0 and received it Nov 20, 1987. I have a large application in MSC 4.0 which I decided to "port" to MSC 5.0 The first module I tried crashed the complier. (multiply three floating point constants together). Called Microsoft got an arrorgant(sp) S*B on line who would not even take down the info. P.S. Others have confirmed the bug. I tried leaving messages on Microsof SIG on Compuserve. Oh, we know about that bug. Gee, that is a feature not a bug. 14 documented bugs later, I gave up. Microsoft has a bug list on DIAL (their subscription service) Thety will not allow it to be posted elsewhere. I do not < More - C(ontinuous) Y/N > Y plan to waste my time and money debugging their product without at least some assistance. Borland at least recognizes bugs, publishes patches and treats their customers like humans. I have briefly tried Turbo C 1.5 and amoung other things found that it creates smaller code than MSC 5.0 (at least for my application). Am I mad..not really. I doubt I will try 5.1 until many months with no bug reports. My time is too valuable. Dave Message #2389 To RICK STANLEY 03-06-88 (Rcvd) From DAVE CAMPBELL Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick, Would you mind telling me the person at Microsoft to contact to get patches? I mean as an individual, not a large corporation. I tried sever8al times and was informed that patches were either a) not available b) provided only to Beta Testers c) provided only to DIAL customers d) provided only to large corporate accounts. I did finally get a beta test copy of Quick C to run on my machine with a Western Digital Controller. Thanks, Dave Message #2390 To RICK STANLEY 03-06-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick, Personally, I have nothing against Microsoft and do, in fact, prefer them to Borland for ANYTHING. However, their recent track record hasn't been, shall we say, glowing. MSC 5.0 was delayed over 3 months and they have yet to release a bug free version of it. OS/2 isn't something to drool over. It's a bid by IBM to make the world true-blue. MS just happened to be able to use it heavily to their advantage. Also, if you've read some of my recent messages here, you'll see that they aren't quite the most useful in sending out things like updates. In the past, I haven't had any problems, but this problem with my C 5.0 update is really bumming me out... :-> BMC Message #2396 To RICK STANLEY 03-07-88 (Rcvd) From ALBERT STEIN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't have the code examples in front of me, but I do know of two instances where QC did not work, and TC did. One is the DB system by Al Stevens (book and diskette). I spoke to him after trying to get the system running. He said he new of enough bugs in QC to stay away from it. Another is the BPLUS.ARC b-tree system. Message #2398 To BEN COHEN 03-07-88 (Rcvd) From BOB IZENBERG Subject (R)TOTAL DEBUG --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sprinkle a mixture of lemon juice and iron filings on it, to make the (invisible) disk tracks readable. Message #2399 To BOB IZENBERG 03-08-88 From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject MIDI --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have a Yamaha PSR 70 which is the top of the bottom, so to speak, and allows midi. I also have a Roland Sampler. However my MPU-401 clone doesn't seem to be connecting. I will have to start IRQ testing sometime real soon now. So far have only tried one software package, which doesn't work, but suspect the hardware. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2400 To BOB IZENBERG 03-08-88 From BEN COHEN Subject (R)TOTAL DEBUG --------------------------------------------------------------------------- You forgot the part about holding the disk over a flame to make them visible. If I'm lucky, I'll get too close and the diskette will burst into flame (much like some people here (just kidding, Rick)). BMC Message #2401 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 03-08-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- No I'm not a spy, but maybe I should be paid for all the support I give Microsoft. Rick Message #2402 To DAVE CAMPBELL 03-08-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you know the SOB you talked to at Microsoft, please let me know. I'm sure they don't want that attitude on their tech support line. I have had no trouble when talking to them. Borland may or may not recognize bugs but it takes them 6 months to release the corrections and sticks the cost on the purchaser! Microsoft is currenly working on the corrections, and it won't take them 6 months to release them. Again, have you tried Quatro yet? BUGGY! Rick Message #2403 To BEN COHEN 03-08-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Turbo C was over 6 MONTHS late and more buggy than Microsoft, but no one seems to acknowlage this fact! Why is that?? Hmmmm! I don't think OS/2 was IBM's idea but Microsoft's. Their was some joint effort with IBM. If it was IBM's idea, how come OS/2 was developed on Compaq 386 computers? Rick Message #2404 To RICK STANLEY 03-09-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Come out of the closet all you other "Flaming" Microsoft fans! Yes, Rick they should pay you for such loyal support. Do they ever send you any updates, news etc? You should remember however, that most of the people that are "bitching" about MS 5.0 have BOUGHT a copy, and feel like all the hassel they are going through is a little counter productive to their endeavor to make a living, banging out C code. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2405 To RICK STANLEY 03-09-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Can you let the rest of us know the bugs you know about in Quatro Rick? niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2406 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 03-09-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Niki: I watched a user create a graph with Quatro, then send it to a laserjet printer. While the graph was printing, I watched the screen turn to garbage (random characters). WHen the printing was finished, she could continue to use the program, but could not read the screen. She had to exit an reenter the program. This hapened every time she printed a graph. Standing in line to register for Softeach, A man was telling me in a period of two hours he encountered 4 serious bugs. He did not go into detail, but he has stopped using it. Borland strikes again! Rick Message #2408 To RICK STANLEY 03-09-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- True, but they'll only give you the bug fixes that you ask for. There's NO WAY to get all outstanding updates for problem fixes. BMC Message #2409 To RICK STANLEY 03-09-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Waitasecond. You're trying to convince the wrong person. I was NOT comparing MS to Borland. I was comparing MS to previous performance, ALSO BY MS. They utterly screwed up with the MS C 5.0 release. It came way after they said it would and they still haven't fixed it completely. BMC Message #2411 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 03-09-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hear, hear Niki. I've spent over 5 hours trying to correct a "feature" that was inserted by the loop optimizer on a very simple procedure where, if they'd realized that they were doing an invalid comparison and put a message about type conversion, all would have been OK. I'm seriously thinking about going back to 4.0. At least the bugs were obvious then... Message #2413 To ALL 03-09-88 From CHUNG SIN Subject FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi! Guys. I'd read with great interest regarding the MSC 5.0. MMay I suggest that we stop at 5.0 now, perhaps go back to 4.0, and wait for the 3 months quantum lift to 6.0 Message #2414 To CHUNG SIN 03-10-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MSC 5.1 is (theoretically) going to be coming out in the near future and will correct all known bugs in the current 5.0, plus it'll probably introduce a whole new set... BMC Message #2415 To BEN COHEN 03-10-88 (Rcvd) From CHUNG SIN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is that so. I hope that they would start that at 5.0 instead at 5.1. It just doesn't make sense that one spend about .5k for a package and have to worry about its functionality towards ones application. Message #2416 To NIKI SHRODE 03-10-88 (Rcvd) From LORA FRISCH Subject QUATTRO --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quattro claims that you can do a /FileRetrieve on a Lotus workshU+et and it will be seamlessly translated in the appropßriate quattro worksheet. I have found that if I have several macros in my Lotßus sheet, when I read it into Quattro Sirens sound, the screen flashes, the load fails. If I just have one or two macros I sometimes lose characters. Therefore making the macro worthlessLotus sheets without macros read in fine. .... I jushave met one person who has read in db files and he said that worked great.Ä .... This has been a big sßappointment to me, because I really like TurboC and had hoped to write various applications tying TurboC and Quattro together. ... By the way, why on this board do I always get so much noise? I dropped my speed from 2400 to 1200 and that helped some, but things are still bad. < More - C(ontinuous) Y/N > Y Message #2417 To JUDYTH POWERS 03-10-88 (Rcvd) From LORA FRISCH Subject (R)TURBOC GRAPHICS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- A cardiod has the equation r=a(1-cos(theta)) A viewport is what Borland wcalls a window when you are in graphixs mode. Message #2418 To BEN COHEN 03-10-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ben: Why don't you wait till it is released before you start criticizing Microsoft 5.1. Rick Message #2419 To ALL 03-10-88 From RICK STANLEY Subject MICROSOFT --------------------------------------------------------------------------- To all Microsoft critics! Check out message #10 on the MSC conference over on The C-SIG BBS. Rick Message #2420 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 03-10-88 (Rcvd) From ALBERT STEIN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bravo! Message #2422 To BEN COHEN 03-10-88 (Rcvd) From BILL NORRIS Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- With the experience you've had with updates, the next version might just be release 'SQR( -5.1 )'. Message #2423 To RICK STANLEY 03-10-88 (Rcvd) From BILL NORRIS Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick, version 5.1 will be released as soon as Microsoft hires one or two of Borland's programmers... ( oops, make that 'soon after', not 'as soon as' ). Message #2424 To RICK STANLEY 03-11-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- My screen turns to garbage every time I try to switch windows, in Microsoft WINDOWS 2.03 But I don't say "Microsoft strikes again" ..... I blame my motherboard! niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2425 To BEN COHEN 03-11-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remember when everyone said Dos 2.01 was too hard, that they were going back to Dos 1.0? It sounds to me that while everyone is learning "the hard way" how to use the new 5.0, they are all blowing off steam. The only way anyone I know seems to ever learn anything is by "trial and error". Blaming the compiler for not anticipating your error is a little weak. If Microsoft anticipated everyones quirky code, the compiler would come on two hundred disks and need a cray for fast compilation. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2426 To LORA FRISCH 03-11-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)QUATTRO --------------------------------------------------------------------------- As to line noise, I use a Hayes modem and never experience line noise when I call this board. And as you might imagine, I call in a lot! As to Quatro, I believe they said it would not translate "macros". Well, bless my heart, I just ran across the answer .... To use macros created with Lotus 123 in Quattro, you must have a Lotus-compatible menu tree loaded. Hope this helps a little. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2427 To ALBERT STEIN 03-11-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good morning professor! niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2428 To RICK STANLEY 03-11-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- That was a general criticism of all language releases. (not to mention operating systems, etc.). Most things that come out fix all the old bugs and introduce brand-new ones. BTW, you really shouldn't be so sensitive... You're NOT Bill Gates. Message #2429 To BILL NORRIS 03-11-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Methinks you meant "sqrt(-5.1)" ? BMC Message #2430 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 03-11-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Whoa!!!! I never said that the compiler had to correctly interpret everything that I tell it. However, interpreting things DIFFERENTLY between the optimized and un-optimized versions is a MAJOR NO-NO! Trial and error is used for figuring out how things work, not how they DON'T work. BMC Message #2432 To BEN COHEN 03-11-88 (Rcvd) From BILL NORRIS Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I imagine that's what it should be... Message #2433 To ALBERT STEIN 03-11-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)MICROSOFT --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The C-SIG BBS is at (212) 473-2744, 1200/2400 N 8 1. Your registration is automatic. Rick Message #2434 To RICK STANLEY 03-12-88 (Rcvd) From DAVE CAMPBELL Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick, Didn't get the Microsoft guy's name. Wish I had. As you may know Microsoft and Borland both have SIGs on Compuserve. I visited Microsoft's SIG several times and left messages describing bugs and got a) no response or b) yes,..we already know about that Microsoft apparently has/had a BUG list on DIAL but they would not allow it to be copied to COMPUSERVE. Microsoft appears to be supporting DIAL users, large corporate users, and maybe the independant consultant/programmer. Borland appears to be much more concerned about us "little" guys. Messages about bugs/problems are quickly answered. Patches were available for TC 1.0. By the way, Microsoft's documentation for MSC 5.0 is FAR superior to Borland's. Microsoft's Quick C manual is SLICK garbage. Do Bad thing is I want to like Microsoft C Dave Message #2436 To DAVE CAMPBELL 03-12-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's not a bad thing to like Microsoft. (Although most people around here seem to think it is.) If you are writing professionally, you will use 5.0 as your main compiler, and only use QC as a quick development tool or to debug some small section of code. QC was never ment as a complete compiler, only as a tool for 5.0. If you are a hobbyist or student of C, then QC is perfect for that purpose. With all the online help available, I hardly ever refer to the QC manual anymore. Rick Message #2437 To ALL 03-12-88 From RICK STANLEY Subject MICROSOFT HELP --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If anyone here is having trouble with Microsoft's C 5.0 or Quick C compilers, or want to report a bug, please leave me a message here or on the C-SIG BBS, MSC conference, and I will call my contact at Microsoft to get an answer for you. I promise to get a reasonable answer for you. Rick Stanley, (SYSOP) C-SIG BBS Message #2438 To BEN COHEN 03-12-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- When you optimize you usually leave "little used" things behind to increase speed, like racers don't carry spare tires. However when you want everything including the kitchen sink along, don't plan on speed or optimizing. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2440 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 03-13-88 (Rcvd) From LORA FRISCH Subject (R)QUATTRO --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I will try that and let you know what happens. Message #2441 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 03-13-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have no problem with optimization taking forever, but the optimizer SHOULD NOT change basic assumptions. If the optimized code is going to function differently from the un-optimized, I want a message about it. Message #2442 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 03-13-88 (Rcvd) From SAM CHIN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Strange... my screen turns to garbage too every time I try to edit a .EXE file. Message #2443 To DAVE CAMPBELL 03-13-88 (Rcvd) From CHRIS NOYES Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- My initial experience with Borland was not too good. The documentation in the manual is terrible. You have to buy books just to find out how it works. Second the editor is useless without reconfiguring. I neglected to say that I am talking about the turbo pascal. The code is good and it compiles fast, but some of the other idiosincrosies that it has are terrible. I lean towards microsoft because they have a good standard product that lots of things are compatible with and doesn't have loads and loads of idio... I initially started in c with the Mark Williams Lets C 3.0 package. That package is terrible it has lots of idio... and the assembler is worse, and the manual... The editor they supplied is so slow and awkwardm i just couldn't use it. Until I wrote my own editor, I used the turbo editor that comes in turbo pascal (but after I reconfigured it so it was a little user friendlier). I started using Microsoft with the C4.0 and Masm 4.0 packages and they were actually better than the current version. The current version was put together a little to quickly I think. There are still some bugs. Like no error messages in QCL just error numbers, but it's not that bad. Message #2444 To BEN COHEN 03-13-88 (Rcvd) From CHRIS NOYES Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Read the documentation on the readme files. the manual makes several notes about loop optimizations and pointer aliases Message #2446 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 03-13-88 (Rcvd) From CHRIS NOYES Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- A nice experience I had with MS is that I bought MSC 4.0 just before 5.0 was realeased (about 6 weeks) and I got the 5.0 package for free. Message #2447 To RICK STANLEY 03-13-88 (Rcvd) From CHRIS NOYES Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- My experience with people at MS has been good, but they don't seem to be able to get problems fixed. Message #2448 To ALBERT STEIN 03-13-88 (Rcvd) From CHRIS NOYES Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Someone should point out to Al Stevens about his DB Schema compiler that there is a difference between 0 and a NULL pointer Message #2449 To CHRIS NOYES 03-14-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fine. However, it should not change ASSUMPTIONS about data when switching from one type to the other. The code fragment that caused the problem is as follows: unsigned char buf[500]; int i, j; int col, row; for (j = 0; j < buf[i+1]+1; j++, row++) { plot_pt(col, row, buf[i]-128); } In the unoptimized version, the comparison "j < buf[i+1]+1" compiles correctly. In the optimized version, however, the compiler changes both sides to unsigned int, which is the incorrect assumption. That's my major complaint. BMC Message #2452 To CHUNG SIN 03-15-88 (Rcvd) From JOE DERFLINGER Subject (R)SYS STAT.H --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The book is from MIS press and is called "C Database Development" by A; Stevens. Turbo C is on his list. I have not finished it. But the main code I typed in and it compiled ok. Just have not really seen any application working with it. Actually if it works the book would offr some very good routines for database work. Message #2453 To CHRIS NOYES 03-15-88 (Rcvd) From NEIL ROSSI Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Problems? Microsoft has no problems. They do have a lot of "user errors", there may be some "ambiguities" in the documentation, perhaps a couple of "undocumented features", but problems? Nah. Message #2454 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 03-18-88 (Rcvd) From WILBUR STREETT Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you would like to get a bit of support for the microsoft products, try purchasing a subscription to their "Microsoft Systems Journal". What a piece of trash. Gives great little articles that don't say anything about anything, except of course the new Microsoft stuff that noone is really using, "like the presentation manager". The thing that really rings true about the magazine is the price, Pure Microsoft! $10 per issue. Message #2456 To BEN COHEN 03-20-88 (Rcvd) From CHRIS NOYES Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- you should be able to turn off the loop optimizations for that type of problem. The manual makes some references to that Message #2457 To ALBERT STEIN 03-20-88 (Rcvd) From CHRIS NOYES Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have changed my source so that all pointers in the schema.c produce (char *) 0 or (int *) 0 rather than just 0. The second thing that I fixed was a problem with the date validation his did day/month/year rather than the normal month/day/year. I also improved the compare routine in btree so it could handle case insensitive searches and searches with variable length keys like with the dbase set exact off function. If you have any ? let me know? Message #2458 To NEIL ROSSI 03-20-88 (Rcvd) From CHRIS NOYES Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope your being sarcastic! They claim the editor for QuickC supports the EGA 43 line mode, but it doesn't. Another thing I discovered today They have a bug in their color setting routines using the ega. The routines don't handle the red part properly. Message #2459 To CHRIS NOYES 03-20-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The only way to fix it is to either: A) turn off loop optimization B) manually enter the cast of the right hand side to (int). Now, I wouldn't mind needing to do B. However, what I do mind was that it took me over 5 hours in order to find the exact problem. Fixing it was easy. I do not expect to need to spend time debugging compilers unless I've been given a beta version of something. Hell, C 5.0 acts more like it's an alpha version and not even beta. I would've appreciated some indication that the compiler was mangling my code. Even a message would've sufficed because I then would've known that I had to explicitly state the cast. BMC Message #2461 To CHRIS NOYES 03-20-88 (Rcvd) From NEIL ROSSI Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Uh, yeah, I think I was being sarcastic. We've tried to get some help for MS on occasion on working around bugs, and the hardest part of the problem was getting them to admit there was a bug in the first place! At least they do call you back, which is more than I can say for some tech support lines. Message #2462 To ALL 03-20-88 From CRAIG DEROUEN Subject C PROGRAMMER'S BBS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is an excellent C and 8086 Assem,bly Programmer's BBS opened up here on the West coast. We have lots of C and 8086 assembly code and are deicated purely to Programming, no games or DOS utils here. We support the FIdonet system and carry several EchoMail conference's including C and Programmer's. Give us a call 24 hours a day 1200/2400 baud at (206) 285-3731. Message #2463 To ALL 03-21-88 From WILBUR STREETT Subject C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why is there nothing here about this tremendously important extension to the C language? Message #2464 To WILBUR STREETT 03-21-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mayhap because no one's really interested in C++ until a direct compiler comes out, rather than just some preprocessors (effectively) that still require a full C compiler? BMC Message #2465 To WILBUR STREETT 03-21-88 (Rcvd) From BILL NORRIS Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because we're afraid to use it, as AT&T might sue... Message #2466 To JOE DERFLINGER 03-22-88 (Rcvd) From CHUNG SIN Subject (R)SYS STAT.H --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe, seems like you're pretty much interested in C'base programming. Have you take a look at the book "C ToolBox" by william Hunt. It contains a quit thorough treatment of Btree in C, and it serve pretty well as medium C tutorial too. Message #2467 To BEN COHEN 03-24-88 (Rcvd) From DAVE SIEGEL Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm using C++ now (Guidelines). Oregon Software (?) claims a native code compiler (don't know if it's shipping yet, or any other specs). C++ is'nt a preprocessor, but rather a compiler that at present, is typically outputting C code, rather than machine language. Wilbur, have you any questions? -dms Message #2468 To DAVE SIEGEL 03-24-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- That was sort of what I said. It's INTENDED to be another language, but I have yet to see a native code compiler. So far, all that's come out are just C preprocessors. BMC Message #2469 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 03-24-88 (Rcvd) From STEVE LIBERTY Subject (R)DEVELOPERS C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Soryy but that just isn't correct. C 5.0 is REALLY for DOS. C 5.1 comes with the OS/2 SDK, and is really the same compiler except that it generates calls to the protect mode library and can be invoked either in DOS or OS/2. STEVE Message #2471 To ALL 03-25-88 From STEVE LIBERTY Subject OS 2 TEXT WINDOWS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am currently developing a text windows library (along the lines of the Window BOSS) that can be used to create OS/2 applications as well as bound applications that would run under both OS/2 and DOS. The first version is almost ready, so I thought I would test the waters. Please leave me a msg if this is something you would be interested in. The first few versions will be posted on various BBS's (small model only), and if things develop nicely, and if there seems to be enough demand, I will release a later version commercially (but inexpensively). Please leave me your comments. STEVE CIS 71450,2341 BIX sliberty Message #2472 To STEVE LIBERTY 03-25-88 (Rcvd) From DANIEL DOMAN Subject (R)DEVELOPERS C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- steve, you are not entirely correct about C 5.1 - It does not "generate OS/2 calls." The 5.1 compiler is a FAPI, meaning it can run in both protected mode and real mode (DOS). The C Library for 5.1 comes in two forms, a DOS library and a OS/2 library. Also the tools that come with it e.g.. codeview, link etc are all FAPI's and can be run in either mode. daniel Message #2473 To STEVE LIBERTY 03-25-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)DEVELOPERS C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Registered users of C 5.0 will be recieving upgrade notices in the next 2 or 3 weeks to upgrade their C 5.0 to C 5.1 and their QC 1.0 will be upgraded to QC 1.1. This information is direct from Microsoft Corp. as of today. I have been a beta tester of the QC 1.1 compiler for the last 3 months. I was under a non-diclosure aggreement until today. If you have any questions, please ask me for the current info. Also I will be starting a wish list for changes and improvements to be added to the next release of both QC 2.0 and C 6.0. If you have any sugestions, please leave me a message here or on the C-SIG BBS, at (212) 473-2744 Rick Stanley (SYSOP) C-SIG BBS Message #2474 To RICK STANLEY 03-25-88 (Rcvd) From ALBERT STEIN Subject (R)DEVELOPERS C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Will the upgrade be free or at what price? Message #2477 To BEN COHEN 03-26-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- When they Optimize a racing bike, they may remove the back fender, and you don;t have a problem till you hit the mud. I'm sure that the hand holding messages are sure to follow in the C compiler. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2478 To SAM CHIN 03-26-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you are going to edit EXE files, you need to buy my new and improved exe file display monitor. It turns garbage into electric compost. :-) niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2481 To WILBUR STREETT 03-26-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- What? Your not writing for the "Presentation Manager". Microsoft Systems Journel is an excersize in Desktop publishing. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2482 To ALBERT STEIN 03-26-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)AC.ARC --------------------------------------------------------------------------- What does AC.ARC do wrong? I couldn't even download it a week or so ago, and then was out on a commercial shoot all week and forgot about it. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2483 To STEVE LIBERTY 03-26-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)DEVELOPERS C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for setting me straight on C 5.1 with the OS/2 SDK. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2485 To ALBERT STEIN 03-26-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)DEVELOPERS C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Albert: I was told the upgrade will be for a 'modest' price. I would think the price will be simaler to the upgrade from 4.0 to 5.0. If you only purchased QC 1.0, the upgrade will be less than the full package. I just recieved the upgrade notice for MASM. The price on that was $25.00 from 5.0 to 5.1. QC's price should be about the same. Rick Stanley Message #2486 To RICK STANLEY 03-26-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)DEVELOPERS C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wishlist for C 6.0: An optimizing step that works!!! BMC :-> Message #2488 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 03-26-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- There's a difference between hand-holding messages and messages that inform you of the compiler making strange assumptions. I am all against hand-holding msgs (Dave, let's not get into it...) but definitely want the ones where my code is going to get garbled where it knows (or should know) that it's going to garble it. BMC Message #2489 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 03-26-88 (Rcvd) From ANDREW ATHAN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I bought C 5.0; had no trouble installing it. I had to recompile some c4.0 code so that the def. lib. searches would be fixed (I'ld hate to give all those switches every time I need to compile) and I had to re-assemble some masm code with /mx, but other than that, fine and dandy. QC 1.0 is not bad at all. Was disappointed to find out it did only medium in interactive mode though... Overall, I like C5.0 optimized code much more than 4.0's ... not just because of loop optimizations. I also apreciate that floating point consistency switch! Andrew Message #2490 To BEN COHEN 03-26-88 (Rcvd) From DAVE SIEGEL Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Programs that perform textual substitution without semantic analysis of their input are considered 'preprocessors'. By contrast, programs that translate their input, after validation, into a lower level language for later use (further compilation and execution) are considered 'compilers'. Perhaps a fine distinction, but a distinction none the less. -dms Message #2491 To DAVE SIEGEL 03-26-88 (Rcvd) From BILL NORRIS Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The only quibble I have with your definition is that the output must still be compiled. Depending on which side of the bed I roll out of, some days C++ resembles an intelligent preprocessor ( emphasis on preprocessor ) and a compiler on the others. I haven't used C++ yet, but from a distance, even though it may be sporting nice features, it smells of a kluge. Have you any opinions on this? Message #2492 To DAVE SIEGEL 03-27-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- That sounds much more like a nit than anything else. The definitions that I have always worked with, which haven't gotten me into any trouble are: A preprocessor takes source code and does textual replacement, with or with out validation into a lower level of THE SAME LANGUAGE. A translator takes source code and does syntactic replacement with validation to a completely different language (example is the /Fl switch on MSC). A compiler takes source code and produces some variant of native machine code (whether it's true native or it's sent through some sort of generalized code interpreter, such as p-code). BMC Message #2493 To RICK STANLEY 03-27-88 (Rcvd) From EUGENE COLQUITT Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a strong possibility that OS/2 will turn out to be a big expensive fluke (depending on how the suit aganist Microsoft goes). Anyway I've decided to dump OS/2 and also my AT compat for the MAC II. Message #2494 To RICK STANLEY 03-28-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)DEVELOPERS C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Any changes in MASM upgrade? niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2495 To BEN COHEN 03-28-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, but expecting a compiler to recognise a wrong assumtion, may be like expecting a spell checker to know you meant read instead of red. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2496 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 03-28-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Damnitall. I have nothing wrong with compilers making the wrong assumption SO LONG AS IT IS CONSISTENT IN THAT ASSUMPTION!!! Niki, you have to realize that my problem stemmed from the fact that the compiler CHANGED ASSUMPTIONS between the optimized and non-optimized versions. THAT is what is intolerable. BMC Message #2497 To DAVE SIEGEL 03-28-88 (Rcvd) From WILBUR STREETT Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been playing with the C++ from Guidelines. It only generates code for msc 3.0, but that's ok, since I haven't had to really push it yet. It seems to me that a properly defined opject would realy get re-usable code off to a good start. Do you have any objects that you would like to share with us? Message #2498 To DAVE SIEGEL 03-28-88 (Rcvd) From WILBUR STREETT Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe someone forgot, but the C compiler uses a Macro preprocessor, and most of the good compilers use several passes. So what if my 386 takes another 3-4 seconds to compile a program. If I save 3-4 weeks using C++ then I'm ahead of the game. Message #2499 To BILL NORRIS 03-28-88 (Rcvd) From WILBUR STREETT Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, C++ is a Kludge. But the question is, "Does it give me some worthwhile features in my programming bag of tricks?". The answer is yes. Could someone do the same thing in C? Yes, but it's a lot faster in C++. I will reread the book that I have and report back the developer of C++'s reasons for making C++ a preprocessor. (they did seam valid when I last read them, something about not wanting to waste time designing a compiler, when he really wanted to design a language). Message #2500 To EUGENE COLQUITT 03-28-88 (Rcvd) From WILBUR STREETT Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Boy, I can't wait until Von Neuman gets into this look and feel act! Message #2501 To EUGENE COLQUITT 03-28-88 (Rcvd) From BILL NORRIS Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Congratulations on volunteering to be a cash cow for Apple! ( They'll do almost anything to keep prices high ). Hope you had a better reason than for switching than 'fear'. Message #2502 To WILBUR STREETT 03-28-88 (Rcvd) From BILL NORRIS Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's not usually an additional 3 - 4 seconds, unless your C++ can process your source code files and be back at the DOS prompt in that amount of time. ( If it can do that with non-trivial programs, you must have a speed demon of a machine ). Even if it seems like only a small amount of added time that C++ adds, it may be enough to break your concentration and cause much more 'lost' time - the time it takes to get you head back to where it was. Message #2503 To WILBUR STREETT 03-28-88 (Rcvd) From BILL NORRIS Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Will Apple eventually get sued on 'look & feel' due to their usage of color? Message #2508 To EUGENE COLQUITT 03-29-88 (Rcvd) From CHUNG SIN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who invented the garbage can? Apple, Xerox or humanity? Good luck in 'Nu-busing' to that foreign, propriatative, expensive land. Just the riffoff of the garbage can and Apple II got into me. Message #2509 To RICK STANLEY 03-30-88 (Rcvd) From STEVE LIBERTY Subject (R)DEVELOPERS C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other than bug fixes, what is different anout QC 1.1 compared to 1.0? STEVE Message #2510 To BILL NORRIS 03-31-88 (Rcvd) From DAVE SIEGEL Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually, it's the nicest language upgrade I've ever seen. (Parenthetical note: C++ is typically implemented, at present, with a C code generator. Future implementation will generate object code.) My quibbles: The type of a member function is not defined. There is a way to specify a pointer to a member function, but it's ugly and implementation dependent. Like C, types are equivalent if their base types are equivalent. An example will make this clearer: typedef int intType1; typedef int intType2; intType1 i1; intType2 i2; i1 = i2; i1 = i2 should generate a type error, but for compatibility with C, it does not. Bah! C++ generates warning messages for unused parameters. This is good. However, there is no way to tell the compiler that a parameter is not used by design (intentionally unused parameters crop up when using virtual functions and function pointers). C++ is, of course, a compile only object oriented language. It is not as suitable for eÝÂOnZ exploratory (#@#@$#@ line noise) programming as Smalltalk, Actor, or even Objective-C. -dms Message #2511 To BEN COHEN 03-31-88 (Rcvd) From DAVE SIEGEL Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your definition would eliminate most VHLL compilers which generally compile to high-level languages, frequently Lisp, though I worked on a 5GL which compiled to PL/I (yucch!). C++ is not a higher level of C. It is a different, though similar, language. -dms Message #2513 To WILBUR STREETT 03-31-88 (Rcvd) From DAVE SIEGEL Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 'another 3-4 seconds' My '386 takes about another 30 seconds on a modestly sized C++ program. What are you using? Note also that C++ compiles will tend to be more expensive than C compiles. C++ headers include much more info, and more tend to be needed, given derived classes. -dms Message #2514 To WILBUR STREETT 03-31-88 (Rcvd) From DAVE SIEGEL Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some aspects of C++, especially the additional checking, cannot b edone with C. O-o programming with C is possible, but has significant efficiency costs and can be very error prone (depending on the specific techniques used to simulate o-o programming). -dms Message #2515 To MARK GARVIN 04-01-88 (Rcvd) From STEVE MANES Subject (R)LIB SOURCE --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nope, never did find out exactly why Turbo C was incompatible with my Mitsuba EGA board. This Mitsuba's a relative antique though. When Paul and I built the machine (a 10 mHz AT, which was a burner for its time) we had a selection of EGA boards we tried and only the Mitsuba would run at 10 mHz. Turbo runs fine with my Everex EGA so it's really not a Turbo problem... although I wouldn't use Turbo to compile anything for release to the Outside World. This incompatibility suggests that Turbo's designers may have been just a little too fast 'n loose in their effort to make it fly. I work mostly in Xenix these days and it also features the Microsoft compiler so it's natural for me to use MS-C with DOS... although I loathe working in DOS now. Message #2516 To BILL NORRIS 04-01-88 (Rcvd) From STEVE MANES Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Solicited C++ Opinion: I distrust it because of its name. If it really was a step forward in C they woulda called it ++C. The name kind of suggests, "well, this one's the same old stuff but we'll have something to show you NEXT time!" Message #2517 To BEN COHEN 04-01-88 (Rcvd) From SAM CHIN Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think a compiler has to spit out machine code. It could generate a high level language after doing a lexical analysis, parse, and semantic analysis. I worked on a software prototyping compiler which spat out ADA. Message #2518 To SAM CHIN 04-01-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry, but under most definitions, that's a translator, not a compiler. A compiler generates a machine understandable code, not another HLL or even a MLL. (Medium LL) BMC Message #2519 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 04-02-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)DEVELOPERS C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, There are changes to MASM 5.1. Here are some of them: Language support for OS/2 create one program to run in either DOS or OS/2 incremental linker dynamic link libraries threads, for multiprocessing CodeView runs in either DOS or OS/2 OS/2 programs up to one gigabyte in size Multiple thread programs, and dynamic-link modules Microsoft Editor (New) runs in either DOS or OS/2 four predefined keyboard maps included (modifiable) extendable by adding features written in 'C' Reports compilation errors directly to source editor macros run programs from within editor < More - C(ontinuous) Y/N > Y System requirements DOS - 320k available, DOS ver. 2.1+ OS/2 - 2meg available, MS OS/2 ver 1.0 or IBM OS/2 ver 1.0 A bargin upgrade price of $25.00 from ver. 4.0 or higher Rick Message #2520 To STEVE LIBERTY 04-02-88 From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)DEVELOPERS C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve: The main addition that was added is support for Hercules Graphics card. There is a driver that runs resident and will run all existing graphics commands in Hercules graphics. (740 x 328?) I will be giving a talk on the bug fixes that were made for QC 1.1, at the C-SIG meeting Thursday night at NYU, Main building, 4th floor, 6:30 pm. (Look for a door marked with a C, or a bunch of people standing around in the hall) Rick Message #2521 To ANDREW ATHAN 04-02-88 From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can always use any model library if you create a "Make File". Go to the FILES menu and select "Set Program List". Type in the name of your program, without the extension. QC will ask what C files you will use in your program, and it will create the make file for you. Then, every time you compile the program, it will use the make file to link with any library model you wish. You can edit the make file yourself in QC or with any ASCII editor. See chapter 6.1 and chapter 11 in the QC Programmers guide. Rick Message #2525 To BILL NORRIS 04-06-88 (Rcvd) From WILBUR STREETT Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I make a list of the things that I find to be wrong with a program during the run and test phase. I then go back and fix as many bugs are seems feasible in the edit stage. I them let make take care of getting me back to the run and test phase. Message #2526 To STEVE MANES 04-06-88 (Rcvd) From WILBUR STREETT Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remarkably, ++C was one of the names that was discussed for C++. But since C came first..... Message #2527 To WILBUR STREETT 04-06-88 (Rcvd) From SAM CHIN Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- How about *C for where C is going. Message #2528 To WILBUR STREETT 04-06-88 (Rcvd) From BILL NORRIS Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, I see. Anyone who learned how to program in the dark ages with Hollerith cards and 029's should feel right at home with C++. I've got a paper tape reader at home. Do they supply it in that format? Message #2529 To BILL NORRIS 04-08-88 (Rcvd) From WILBUR STREETT Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- What are you talking about, I don't understand the paper tape message? Message #2530 To WILBUR STREETT 04-08-88 (Rcvd) From BILL NORRIS Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take a few steps backwards to read your message ( #2525 ), which refers to a common ( & necessary ) programming technique that was in style a decade or two ago. Perhaps you like C++ because it reminds you of the 'good old days'? Anybody know where I can get JCL for PC's? Message #2532 To ERIC CHAN 04-09-88 From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)DEVELOPERS C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Eric: The C-SIG meets the first Thursday of each month on the 4th floor of the Main Building of NYU, 100 Washington Sq. East. The only requirement to attend your first meeting is to show up! The meeting is always at 6:30. We also gather at Eddies restaraunt afterwards. For more information, you may call the NYPC voice bulletin board at (212) 533-NYPC or you can call the C-SIG BBS at (212) 473-2744 2400/1200 baud N81. A bbs dedicated to the C language. Rick Message #2533 To STEVE MANES 04-10-88 (Rcvd) From MARK GARVIN Subject (R)LIB SOURCE --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, Steve-- I just don't see how TurboC would work with one EGA card and not another -- especially since the problem doesn't occur in text mode. There isn't that much to writing to the screen RAM. One thing it MIGHT be, now that I think of it: IBM goofed on the docs for the vertical interrupt line. The docs reversed the polarity and some board manufacturers didn't double-check it. Well, I guess if the line toggles at ALL it shouldn't crash, but it sounds suspicious that it works with other EGA cards. This is the only time I've heard of this. If you find out what it is, let me know, OK? -- mark Message #2534 To BEN COHEN 04-10-88 (Rcvd) From CHRIS NOYES Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- remenber the pragmag loop opt can be used to turn off loop optimization in difficult spots Message #2536 To JOE DERFLINGER 04-10-88 (Rcvd) From CHRIS NOYES Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- BUY THE DISK IT'S NOT THAT EXPENSIVE!! you probably have a typing error. Though I did not use the sample cbs programs, I had minimal problems with one of my own. There are a few problems and changes that I have suggested Message #2537 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 04-10-88 (Rcvd) From CHRIS NOYES Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- No I am not using os2. I don't have an at yet but plan on getting one and getting into os2 one of these days when I have money. I understand there will be a free upgrade from 5.0 to 5.1 soon with support for os2 Message #2538 To WILBUR STREETT 04-10-88 (Rcvd) From CHRIS NOYES Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- check out the csig bbs they have a separate conferance on it Message #2539 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 04-10-88 (Rcvd) From CHRIS NOYES Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- It was a nice surprise after laying out about $255 for msc 4.0. Message #2540 To CHRIS NOYES 04-11-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The upgrade is only free if you got the 5.0 version after Feb. 1. The revision comes in two flavors. It's $25.00 for only the DOS support libraries (No OS/2) and $75.00 for both DOS and OS/2 libraries and utilities. (If you got the 5.0 revision before Feb. 1) It is still a bargin at either price! Rick Message #2541 To MARK GARVIN 04-11-88 (Rcvd) From STEVE MANES Subject (R)LIB SOURCE --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If I find out, I'll let you know. Surprisingly, the Mitsuba EGA runs with every other piece of software I own and with every other compiler I've used. When I converted Magpie over to Turbo for laughs and it died... and then the pre-compiled Emacs also died... you can pretty much figger I was concerned about my hardware. It took a couple of weeks to nail Turbo as the culprit. Later, Dean Cooper said that he's had the same problem on his company's Mitsuba EGAs. Message #2542 To ALL 04-11-88 From ALBERT STEIN Subject MSC 5.1 UPDATE --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just got my notice in the mail - and mailed it out immediately. Chose the $75 upgrade, just in case I ever have a need to program in OS2. Message #2543 To CHRIS NOYES 04-12-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fine. However I don't feel that I should be forced to disable a standard part of the compiler JUST BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK!!! Can't you get it through your head that the whole idea of a compiler is that it always works the same way and always produces correct code. Wouldn't you find it very difficult to debug programs if, every time you compiled a program, it generated completely different code? That's, in effect, what's happening here... Sheesh! BMC Message #2544 To ALL 04-12-88 From BEN COHEN Subject C QUES. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, everybody. Got a small trick that I want someone to think about since I haven't been able to find out how to do it. I want to be able to code a #define macro to do the following: If I enter: X(5d) I want to generate: "\x5d" You're allowed to use ANSI C (or at least as much of it as is implemented in MSC 5.0). Let me know if you get anything. BMC Message #2545 To BILL NORRIS 04-13-88 (Rcvd) From JACK SPIEGEL Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why would anyone want JCL for a PC? Job Command Language is made for mainframes. Like DOS is for PC's. There may be pseudo JCL's out there? What type of application did you have on mind? JS Message #2546 To WILBUR STREETT 04-13-88 (Rcvd) From JACK SPIEGEL Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Boy do I feel old. And I only learned to program less then ten years ago. Paper Tape is not that ancient! If you really don't know, paper tape was (maybe still is) being used on mainframes to program. You would type your program into a machine that punched little holes in a roll of paper. You then enter the program into a paper tape reader to read the program into the computer. This also worked with cards. You would type each line of the program on one card and the card puncher would punch out small rectangular holes as you typed. One typing error and you would have to throw out the card and retype the entire line. I used a lot of cards. (I was lucky that I did not use a paper tape.) You also to type in JCL cards to get the computer to know what to do with your program. First the JCL cards had to be typed right, just to have your program run. Then your program had to be typed correctly so you would get the results that you wanted. I don't think that is really possible on the first go around. That was long. Jack < More - C(ontinuous) Y/N > Y Message #2547 To BEN COHEN 04-14-88 (Rcvd) From KEN BELL Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Isn't it bliss to not really know what I'm jumping into here? Anyhow, that said, it sounds like maybe complaints about compiler optimizations? If so, then it's common for the best of compilers to perform "potentially unsafe" code movement at the highest levels of optimization.. and it's the programmer's responsibility to determine whether the code generated is correct in such cases. There are generally pretty specific guidelines for what types of constructs are potentially going to be zapped by such opts (a trivial example is when "dead code elimination" removes your favorite timing loop). If you simply want correct code generation without headaches, then you may just have to disable optimization. ken Message #2548 To BEN COHEN 04-14-88 (Rcvd) From KEN BELL Subject (R)C QUES. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I vaguely remember seeing some stuff on "stringizing" and "token-pasting" in the MSC manual(s). Have you already checked that out? Message #2549 To JACK SPIEGEL 04-14-88 From BILL NORRIS Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- You've got to learn to read between the lines... (this line reserved) There, did you get it? Message #2550 To BEN COHEN 04-14-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ben: You can't blame the compiler completly when you have the ability to turn off optimizations for a specific function or area of code. Th Microsoft compilers give you a rich set of command line switches and pragmas to control the way your code is optimized. I think you are placing too much of the blame on Microsoft. You just can't write a long program, hit a button, and expect the compiler to decipher everything, whithout some help from the author. No compiler is that good. Also, using empty loops to create a delay is not good code. People should use the clock ticks to control delays instead. Rick Message #2551 To KEN BELL 04-14-88 From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Damnitall... How many times do I have to go through this? The problem that I discovered was that MSC 5.0 changed the assumptions that it used from unoptimized to optimized. The result is that a comparison which was: (int) (comparison) (unsigned char) got converted differently. Without optimization, it converted both sides to unsigned int and then did an unsigned comparison, which was correct. With optimization, it converted both sides to signed int and then did an unsigned conversion. Needless to say, this DIDN'T work. I have no problems (or fewer at least) with a compiler screwing me. However, it shouldn't do it because it changed its mind in between the optimization steps. BMC Message #2552 To KEN BELL 04-14-88 From BEN COHEN Subject (R)C QUES. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've already played around with that, but wasn't able to get it. That's why I put it up as an open question. BMC Message #2553 To RICK STANLEY 04-14-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- DAMNITALLL!!!! WOULD YOU PEOPLE PLEASE KINDLY SHUT UP AND LISTEN CAREFULLY TO WHAT I AM SAYING? Now that I have you attention... I do not expect a compiler to be perfect. I'm not and I don't expect Microsoft to be that way either. However a compiler should always make the same assumptions (such as default cast'ings) regardless of whether or not it is optimizing. My problem was a result of C 5.0 changing assumptions and then not INFORMING me that it was assuming something else. End of Story. BMC Message #2554 To BEN COHEN 04-15-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ben: It seems to me you are relying on the compiler to interpret a comparison between an int and an unsigned char, in a particular way. THIS IS NOT GOOD CODE! You should be using casts to force the compiler to interpret that expression the way you want. Data conversion between different types is unsafe code. You can't blame the compiler for this kind od error. Rick Message #2555 To BEN COHEN 04-15-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ben: As I said in the last message, use casts to inform the compiler how you want the compiler to interpret your expression. Don't leave it up to the compiler, in an expression using different types. Rick Message #2556 To RICK STANLEY 04-15-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I blame the compiler for not informing me that it was interpreting the comparison differently between the two different times. My complaint is that a compiler should always make the same assumptions regardless of optimization or lack thereof. Or at least it should tell you that it's changing its assumptions so that you know there might be a problem. BMC Message #2557 To BEN COHEN 04-15-88 (Rcvd) From NEIL ROSSI Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ben, as you leave the macro domain and get into optimizing compilers you start to see quantum effects. These manifest themselves as inconsistent code and they are a manifestation of the uncertainty principle and thus a law of physics and there's nothing you can do about it and let this be the end of it! You'll learn more about this in graduate school. Message #2558 To BEN COHEN 04-15-88 (Rcvd) From BILL NORRIS Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's really your own fault if you occasionally get bit. Those commie compilers will do it every time. Message #2560 To BEN COHEN 04-16-88 (Rcvd) From CHRIS NOYES Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I understand exactly what you are saying. But what you should bear in mind is that a computer program will never have the ability that the human mind has to analyze something and understand the context of what is going on. Fine The compiler should not change assumptions but optimizing a program at the machine language level is quite a bit more difficult than you would think. I am not approving of their bugs, just trying to live with them. Message #2562 To CHRIS NOYES 04-17-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The reason that I've reacted so strongly is that everyone has acted like this should obviously be MY fault that I let this happen to me, which is patently absurd. BMC Message #2563 To BEN COHEN 04-17-88 (Rcvd) From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ben: Have you sent in for your 5.1 upgrade yet? If you have not, send it in and stop complaining. Otherwise, since you obviously dislike Microsoft so much, why don't you switch to another compiler? But keep in mind, Lattice and Turbo C have there own bugs too, and without the optimization that Microsoft has. In other words, I think you have made your point. But I still think you have not put any blame on yourself for your questionable code writing. Rick Message #2564 To BEN COHEN 04-17-88 (Rcvd) From LORA FRISCH Subject (R)C QUES. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is there a reason for using a define? Why isn't code like the following acceptable? #include char hexstrng[6] = { 0x5c,'x'} ; main() { char *j; j = &hexstrng[2]; strcpy(j,"5d"); printf("%s",hexstrng); } Message #2565 To BEN COHEN 04-18-88 (Rcvd) From CHRIS NOYES Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree with you. It is not your fault. But I think it suggests that old phrase modified slightly caveat emptor or with my modification let the programmer beware. Now we know there is a problem and need to watch out for it, and maybe ms will get around to fixing it soon. Message #2566 To RICK STANLEY 04-18-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, I have sent in for my 5.1 upgrade. I DO like Microsoft, but feel that they screwed up with 5.0. They should have waited another month or two before sending it out so they could have finished getting rid of the bugs. Ah, but the question remains: Was my code really questionable since it WAS able to compile it when I didn't invoke optimization. My point was more that a compiler shouldn't change behaviour JUST because you invoke optimization. Or at least, it should tell you about it... BMC Message #2567 To LORA FRISCH 04-18-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)C QUES. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because I want to use the macro in an array initialization and don't want too many lines in the info or very long lines... BMC Message #2568 To CHRIS NOYES 04-18-88 (Rcvd) From BEN COHEN Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I DO know from personal experience that 5.1 doesn't exhibit these problems. The C compiler that comes with the OS/2 SDK is the 5.1 compiler, even though it's called C 5.5. BMC Message #2569 To BEN COHEN 04-18-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Changed your assumtions, huh? Sorry I was so long in answering, I only get into all the conferences about once or twice a month, as I spend a lot of time schmoozing grandma in the evenings. Have you solved the problem of the omptimizer converting your assumptions? niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2570 To WILBUR STREETT 04-18-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If Von Neuman getts into the look and feel issue, there will be a judicial bottleneck clogging the courts. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2571 To BILL NORRIS 04-18-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rumor has it that Xerox is preparing to nail Apple to the wall. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2572 To RICK STANLEY 04-18-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)DEVELOPERS C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for your informative list of advantages in the masm 5.1 compiler. I have now bought one! niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2573 To BILL NORRIS 04-18-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some of the young whippersnappers won't understand paper tape or sarcasm. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2574 To CHRIS NOYES 04-18-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am hoping that the 5.0 I ordered is running late in getting here because they are really sending me 5.1! I already have Masm 5.1 nikim david shrode (grandpa) Message #2575 To CHRIS NOYES 04-18-88 (Rcvd) From NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think Microsoft is making some right moves. A $25 upgrade price will win many friends. niki david shrode (grandpa) Message #2576 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 04-18-88 From WILBUR STREETT Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sun just announced that they licensed technology from Xerox for NEWS. That sure flips the bird to Apple. Message #2577 To BILL NORRIS 04-19-88 (Rcvd) From EUGENE COLQUITT Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well its like this Mr. IBM, I simply purchased the Mac II because I got tired of pretending that there is a future for the old technology of the 70's. Message #2579 To EUGENE COLQUITT 04-20-88 (Rcvd) From BILL NORRIS Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The people I've known that do the most pretending, tend to eventually gravitate to Apple. The Mac II is a pretty decent machine, but the company that produces it is not yet 'Insanely Great'. Message #2581 To BILL NORRIS 04-21-88 (Rcvd) From EUGENE COLQUITT Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- And I suppose that IBM is "Insanely Great", please spare me the electronic compost. I'm not all that crazy about Apple but I am proud to own a machine that won't be obsolete before its paid for. It also runs DOS just as well or even better than the AT or AT compatibles !!!!!!! You say the Mac isn't all that great, but its thecnical specs say otherwise ? Are you familiar with the internals of both the Mac and PS/2 or are just just repeating what someone else has said ? Whats the problem ????? Message #2582 To ALL 04-22-88 From DAVID BARTMESS Subject GRAPHICS MATH ROUTINES --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I need some help on the math side of graphics. Does anyone have any formulae for line drawing (vectoring, continuous, etc.) or any other routines. I'm trying to get together a COMPLETE library of graphics routines for MSC C Hercules graphics. Any help would be appreciated! David Bartmess Message #2583 To EUGENE COLQUITT 04-22-88 From DAVE TRAIL Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where have you seen a Mac ][ running Mess-Dos and did you do any real playing with it? I have yet to see MS-DOS running on a Mac ][ at an even reasonable speed. Message #2584 To EUGENE COLQUITT 04-22-88 From BILL NORRIS Subject (R)C++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you believe that, I can see why you had trouble with the PC and had to get a MAC. ( Or were you just trying to say something Mac-ish? ) Message #2585 To EUGENE COLQUITT 04-22-88 From BILL NORRIS Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are the problem. Try to read the messages carefully. I will try to make it easy for you. I said "THE MAC IS A PRETTY NICE MACHINE. THE COMPANY ( APPLE ) IS NOT AS GREAT" or something to that effect. When I read messages on other boards that support MANY different machines, it is usually the APPLE owners, and to a lesser degree, ATARI owners that are the religious fanatics. Glad you've found a home. Message #2586 To ALL 04-22-88 From DAVID POSKIE Subject FORMAT --------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is the simplest way to format numbers so they have a comma in the thousands positions? I assume I have to convert the number to a string and then bully it around. Is there a function floating around? Message #2587 To DAVID BARTMESS 04-23-88 From WILBUR STREETT Subject (R)GRAPHICS MATH ROUTINES --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you check it out, there are turbo routines here for pascal. I converted them to be used with MSC C. If you are interested, I will upload them here, on the condition that I get any updates that you make. Message #2588 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 04-24-88 From CHRIS NOYES Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well they seem to have a lot of new competition in the reasonable price arena so I guess they are getting a lot more competitive Message #2589 To BEN COHEN 04-24-88 From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ben: The purpose of an optimizing compiler IS to change your code to optimize for faster performance. If your code is not clear, the compiler WILL get confused and interpret your code in the wrong way. One of the key points to good C programming is to write very clear and explicit code. Why do you keep fighting this point? Why do you insist on writing questionable code? Message #2590 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 04-24-88 From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)DEVELOPERS C --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Niki: Good for you! You are aquiring quite a colection of tools! Rick Message #2591 To NIKI SHRODE (SYSOP) 04-24-88 From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Niki: Relax, They are sending you C 5.1. They stopped shipping C 5.0 a few weeks ago. Rick Message #2592 To DAVE TRAIL 04-24-88 From RICK STANLEY Subject (R)FLAMING --------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a company in Great Britin that sells a product called Dos on a Mac. It emulates a DOS machine completly, even down to the ports and chips! It runs at about 8086 speed on a 286 speed Mac, and will run any DOS application. Excellent product! Rick Message #2593 To DAVID BARTMESS 04-24-88 From LORA FRISCH Subject (R)GRAPHICS MATH ROUTINES --------------------------------------------------------------------------- You could be lazy like me and use TurboC 1.5 which has a lot of graphics calls. I have the two books by Schildt on Turbo C which have a lot of info on graphics and C, also I have a book called "Advanced Graphics in C" by Johnson, he mainly refers to the EGA display but of course you can modify it. Name a specific problem and I'll put in my 2 cents worth Lora Frisch (GO PENNIES!)