SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 4 Feb 1993 Volume 18 : Issue 69 Today's Topics: Books - Donaldson (9 msgs) & Herbert & Jeter (2 msgs) & Longyear & May --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Jan 93 05:09:04 GMT From: atlantis!aaron@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Covenant with AIDS A strange idea (maybe not even an idea - a conceit)came to me a couple of nights ago. Would Thomas Covenant have worked with AIDS instead of leprosy? I realize that when Donaldson originally wrote the trilogy, AIDS wasn't extant (was it?), and that he was more familiar with leprosy from his father's work, but still, I got to wondering. He wouldn't be able to determine the effects of the hurtloam as quickly, since I don't think AIDS has as perceptible symptoms as leprosy. And the constant need for VSE's in leprosy doesn't really have an equivalent in AIDS. But a good writer could, perhaps, think of equivalents or merely obviate the need for them. Any other comments? ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 93 02:23:43 GMT From: seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Covenant with AIDS aaron@atlantis.uucp writes: > >A strange idea (maybe not even an idea - a conceit)came to me a couple of >nights ago. > >Would Thomas Covenant have worked with AIDS instead of leprosy? Interesting thought. I'd say, probably yes. The first point of his leprosy was to keep him separated, through revulsion, from other people. AIDS can certainly generate such a reaction. Second, it was a disease that required constant vigilance in order to keep the person alive. While AIDS itself won't kill, anyone with it has to watch out for all sorts of infections; no immune system = no resistance = sudden death. Depending on what stage of AIDS he'd gotten to, there could well be some overt symptoms that hurtloam would cure immediately. The various cancers that show up, like Kaposi's Sarcoma, would disappear. Coughs, etc., would go away. Yes, I think that would work. Where AIDS versus leprosy would fail would be in the SECOND trilogy. If the Creator didn't cure Covenant's AIDS (especially if it was fairly advanced to begin with) at the end of the first, Covenant would never have lived the ten years until the second, let alone be in any shape to do the adventures in the Wounded Land without hurtloam. And if his AIDS *had* been cured, he'd be a medical celebrity. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 93 16:15:54 GMT From: (David Ingham) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Covenant with AIDS Hmmm. I don't think the story as written would work with AIDS for leperosy. I think one of the things that make leprosy work that would not work with AIDS is the health of the person. With AIDS your health declines and you eventualy must be under constant medical care, there is not much the victim can do to slow down the effects of the disease. With leperosy the disease is much more hidden and controllable by the victim. The will of Covenant to keep up his very strict regiment of survival is key to the story. So, while a story could be written with Covenant with AIDS ( or cancer, or herpes or whatever), it would not be the same story because the facts of the illness are different. David Ingham ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 93 22:18:49 GMT From: tcnet!newave!kirk!tnielson@kksys.kksys.mn.org (THORIN NIELSON) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Covenant with AIDS Just a few thoughts, disagreements, etc. I mostly agree with SW on this point, but the one symptom that AIDS does not have a correlation with leprosy, of course, is the NUMBNESS. This is absolutely vital to the story as SRD wrote it. The stigmata associated with AIDS would be appropriate, perhaps MORE appropriate when referring to his dealings with his unsympathetic neighbours. I could never quite grasp why their hate was so deep. But the numbness, that's what made the story special. That's what made you almost willing to forgive the obscenity of Lena's rape. I was fascinated by my 'near' grasp of his ailment, but my very small understanding of tactile deprivation. (Cold hands and fallen asleep limbs notwithstanding). In the Land, Covenant had to learn to FEEL again. > Where AIDS versus leprosy would fail would be in the SECOND trilogy. If > the Creator didn't cure Covenant's AIDS (especially if it was fairly > advanced to begin with) at the end of the first, Covenant would never > have lived the ten years until the second, let alone be in any shape to > do the adventures in the Wounded Land without hurtloam. > > And if his AIDS *had* been cured, he'd be a medical celebrity. Invalid argument. To jog your memory, Covenant was NOT 'healed' of his leprosy, whatever other physical ailment corresponded as he passed from world to world. Therefore, if he was healed in the Land of AIDS, it probably would NOT have been manifest in the 'real' world. Thorin Nielson ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 93 02:02:22 GMT From: seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Covenant with AIDS tnielson@kirk (THORIN NIELSON) writes: >> Where AIDS versus leprosy would fail would be in the SECOND trilogy. If >> the Creator didn't cure Covenant's AIDS (especially if it was fairly >> advanced to begin with) at the end of the first, Covenant would never >> have lived the ten years until the second, let alone be in any shape to >> do the adventures in the Wounded Land without hurtloam. > >>And if his AIDS *had* been cured, he'd be a medical celebrity. > >Invalid argument. Don't take this as a flame... BUT FOR GOG'S SAKE, *READ* what is written. >To jog your memory, Covenant was NOT 'healed' of his leprosy, Obviously I know that. However, what I was referring to was that the Creator OFFERED to do so - to HEAL Covenant, in this world, in return for his services. Covenant, as we know, refused this for his own reasons. However, what I was saying above, was that if the Creator did NOT heal Covenant - that is, if Covenant refused him in the AIDS condition, Covenant would not have SURVIVED until the second trilogy. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 93 16:40:40 GMT From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Covenant with AIDS I have not read any Donaldson - I'm just making medical commentaries. (David Ingham) writes: >Hmmm. I don't think the story as written would work with AIDS for >leperosy. I think one of the things that make leprosy work that would not >work with AIDS is the health of the person. With AIDS your health >declines and you eventualy must be under constant medical care, there is >not much the victim can do to slow down the effects of the disease. With >leperosy the disease is much more hidden and controllable by the victim. >The will of Covenant to keep up his very strict regiment of survival is >key to the story. So, while a story could be written with Covenant with >AIDS ( or cancer, or herpes or whatever), it would not be the same story >because the facts of the illness are different. The course of HIV infection is not always so relentlessly glum as you are portraying. Those who do best have a strong will to fight the disease, and adopt strict regimens to protect themselves and their immune systems. Serious threats are a constant danger by the time the infection has progressed to what is called AIDS, but even so, it can be a few years before constant medical attention is needed. Matthew P Wiener weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 93 18:22:16 GMT From: mc7f+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael P Collins) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Covenant with AIDS aaron@atlantis.uucp writes: > He wouldn't be able to determine the effects of the hurtloam as quickly, > since I don't think AIDS has as perceptible symptoms as leprosy. And the > constant need for VSE's in leprosy doesn't really have an equivalent in > AIDS. But a good writer could, perhaps, think of equivalents or merely > obviate the need for them. I don't think so. The real essence of Covenant's Leprosy is delineated in LFB. Remember the doctor saying that Leprosy is not a "Romantic" disease? Because of his leprosy, Covenant becomes a pariah, reviled by all the people in this world. Regardless of how noble an action on Earth is, he is never accepted by his fellows on Earth. In contrast, any action he takes in the Land, regardless of how reprehensible it is, is accepted. The other little detail is that leprosy is a...hmm..."Cynic's" disease. Like Donaldson says, fantasy is the death of lepers; you end up hungering for everything you cannot have because your survival depends on a strict regimen of self-discipline. Just a thought here, but Donaldson keeps repeating that Leprosy is an arrestable disease. Covenant can live a (relatively) normal life so long as he VSE's and takes his drugs. That's one of the major underlying themes of Covenant: his survival hinges on his free-will. HE decides whether he's going to live or die. That's a liberty robbed from AIDS patients. No, I don't think it would work. Too many of the major themes would be destroyed. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 93 14:08:02 GMT From: jc@crosfield.co.uk (jerry cullingford) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Covenant with AIDS aaron@atlantis.uucp writes: >Would Thomas Covenant have worked with AIDS instead of leprosy? > >He wouldn't be able to determine the effects of the hurtloam as quickly, >since I don't think AIDS has as perceptible symptoms as leprosy. And the >constant need for VSE's in leprosy doesn't really have an equivalent in >AIDS. But a good writer could, perhaps, think of equivalents or merely >obviate the need for them. No, I don't think it could have worked. Leprosy provided the basic reason why Covenant didn't believe in the Land (which in turn is the basic drive behind most of his actions); Nerves don't regenerate; Leprosy can't be reversed. Failure to be constantly alert will cause further irreversible damage, so ignoring it is extremely dangerous; You can't pretend it doesn't exist, even for a while. Therefore a setting where nerves have regenerated must be unreal, and dangerous to accept. Now contrast that with AIDS; AFAIK, it's the secondary infections that cause the problems, and they can often be treated. So presumably it can be possible to have stable periods between secondary infections, and maybe even improve during such periods. Now try that in the Land; there's nothing that says visible symptoms cannot be treated, no immediately, constantly apparent indication to contradict the reality of the land, and no reason not to accept the Land as a pleasant, if temporary, escape. Think of Hile Troy... A character with AIDS would probably have even less difficulty in accepting the land; and as much, or more reason to be grateful. Jerry Cullingford jc@crosfield.co.uk jc@cel.uucp jc@selune.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 93 17:05:39 GMT From: jmunson@uwsuper.edu (John A. Munson) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Stephen R. Donaldson's "Gap" series I would be interested in reading the comments of/hearing from subscribers to this group concerning Stephen R. Donaldson's "Gap" series. I have enjoyed the first three parts and have noted that S.R.D. has lost none of his ability (or predisposition) to infuse his characters with levels of angst which would be guaranteed to destroy ordinary mortals.... If you would like to carry on a discussion regarding this topic, but don't think it's worth the bandwidth to be on this group, please consider e-mail. John A. Munson jmunson@hp.uwsuper.edu ------------------------------ Date: 1 Feb 93 17:22:03 GMT From: lenny@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (christopher.j.lentz) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Frank Herbert generate@kryton.UUCP (Robert Nevitt) writes: >Does anybody know of any good Frank Herbert books? I just got done >reading Dune Messiah, and I'm about to start Children Of Dune... are there >any other books by him that are good like these? I'd suggest "The White Plague". It's about a genetic engineer that creates a plague in response to the IRA's killing of his family. AND it isn't part of a long series, like DUNE. Also, I really enjoyed a series that Herbert did with Bill Ransom. It included "The Jesus Incident" and "The Lazarus Effect". I believe these two were precursed by a solo work by Herbert called "Destination Void" which (if I remember correctly) was more to the hard sf side. I didn't enjoy it as much and it isn't necessary to read it before the other two. Christopher J. Lentz lenny@cbcosmos.att.com ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 93 07:24:34 GMT From: lichter@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Michael I. Lichter) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: K.W. Jeter A while back I read K.W. Jeter's book _Dr. Adder_, the only book I can think of that's made me sick, and the only story I can remember that's given me nightmares besides Harlan Ellison's "The Glass Goblin" (from _Deathbird Stories_). The book's another near-future thing centered in "The Interface", the high-tech red-light crazy zone where sleazy LA meets uptight Orange County. Dr. Adder is a noble mad scientist who makes most of his money mutilating women on contract (from them, their pimps, or their men). The protagonist, a kid, used to work in a rural whorehouse where the whores were actually gigantic chickens (hens), but takes off to make his fortune in the big city. The book is both thoroughly disgusting (I'm not sure how much of the misogyny is Jeter's and how much is him just trying to show that our culture is misogynistic) and very powerful. And remember: "the prodigal son *is* the fatted calf!". I bring this up mainly because I was curious about _The Glass Hammer_. I have _Farewell Horizontal_ by Jeter, but haven't been able to locate _Hammer_. Does anybody know if it's any good, and worth continuing to scour used book stores for? Michael ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 93 14:06:35 GMT From: meikle@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Barry Meikle) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: K.W. Jeter lichter@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Michael I. Lichter) writes: [comments about _Dr. Adder_ deleted] >I bring this up mainly because I was curious about _The Glass Hammer_. I >have _Farewell Horizontal_ by Jeter, but haven't been able to locate >_Hammer_. Does anybody know if it's any good, and worth continuing to >scour used book stores for? _The Glass Hammer_ is a very nice idea-book. The epigraph is Gore Vidal musing that one of the strangenesses of being famous in the age of video is that you're familiar with what the back of your head looks like. The story is set in a vaguely cyber-punkish, media-rich world - characters have their lives monitored and retold to the world by cameras whizzing around them. The narrative often slips into video screenplay mode, with no explanation of events - we just watch what the cameras show us. Some nice effects, kind of like a cross between Robbe-Grillet and a Star-Trek script (and I always liked those ZOOMs and PANs :-) Aside from the play and tricks of narrative, though, I seem to recall that it's pretty much a bang-'em-up sf adventure. Nice ride. Dick fans might find the book interesting - there's a surprisingly sad, affectionate portrayal of a character I took to be Philip K. Dick. He's attempting the strange, personal task of recreating a shattered stained-glass window from the millions of fragments. I believe Jeter knew Dick during the period when _VALIS_ was under construction/being lived. (I have a lurking memory that he may be that Kevin who hopes to confront God with his stiff dead cat held out before him like a frying pan). Those who know (or who've done their homework and read the biographies) feel free to correct this. Barry Meikle University of Toronto Bookstore 214 College Street Toronto, Ont. M5T 3A1 1-416-978-7925 meikle@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 93 21:20:03 GMT From: zardoz@sycom.mi.org (David Lillard) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: B.B.L. If you ever get the chance to attend a Workshop or talk by Barry B. Longyear, I *strongly* suggest that you do so. He is both Entertaining and Informative. He's the only speaker I've ever encountered who made the act of taking a dump both Funny AND Interesting. BTW, you *might* want to pick up a copy of his Writer's Guide. It's only "$10 - cheap". Disclaimer: The above is *only* my opinion. I have no connection to Mr. Longyear. I was mearly one of his pleased audience members at this weekend's ConFusion. Best, Dave ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 93 21:51:51 GMT From: cdickson@nzls02.wide.ad.jp (Chris Dickson) Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Query - Julian May I have Read Most of Julian May's books (The Sage of the Exiles, Jack the Bodyless, etc..), but I have heard "whispers" of titles that have not made it to New Zealand, Is there anybody out there who has a list of titles, or knows of any new books, by the author. Thanks. Chris Dickson cdickson@nzl.abk.nec.co.jp ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************