SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 12 Feb 1993 Volume 18 : Issue 101 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Research Questionnaire & Fan Fiction and Copyrights (11 msgs) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Jan 93 20:19:00 GMT From: nritchie@trentu.ca (Nicole A. Ritchie) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: SF Research Assignment I'm doing an assignment for one of my courses on sf and I was hoping some of you might be interested in helping me out. Basically I'm looking at differences in male and female attitudes/actions towards sf. If you would like to help me, please e-mail your responses to the following questionnaire. If you can't e-mail it then post it to this group. 1. Initials ___ 2. Sex M___ F___ 3. How often do you read sf novels/short stories? Less than 1 hr/week ___ 1-2 hrs/week ___ 2-3 hrs/week ___ 3-4 hrs/week ___ More than 4 hrs/week ___ 4. How often do you watch sf movies/shows? Less than 1 hr/week ___ 1-2 hrs/week ___ 2-3 hrs/week ___ 3-4 hrs/week ___ More than 4 hrs/week ___ 5. How do you differentiate between sf and fantasy (in 250 words or less)? 6. Who got you interested in sf (friends, relatives, an episode of ST, etc)? 7. At approximately what age did you get interested in sf? 8. Which do you prefer? Hard sf ___ (based on sciences like physics and chemistry) Soft sf ___ (based on sciences like psych. and sociology) 9. If you can, give reasons as to why you like sf (in 250 words or less)? Thanks in advance. This is worth 25% of my final mark so any help would be appreciated and if you would like to see the results just tell me and I'll send them to you. Nicole ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 93 00:34:55 GMT From: whheydt@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Fan Fiction--Copyright Infringement? karp@skcla.monsanto.com writes: >But more importantly as the poster implied in the intro, one should be >careful not to bite the hand that feeds. We buy these stories for our >pleasure. I have contemplated writing in other BNA's worlds just for fun. >I realize that if I did it for profit, I owe somebody money. But if I do >it for fun and share it with friends (friends being defined as people who >would enjoy it), give me leave to do it. I wasn't even aware there was a >legal issue involved. This kind of protection illustrates an evil in our >society. This evil is that this sort of game playing with the thoughts of >an author which you need paper and pen or electronic media for is >prohibited if the author wants it that way. Is the problem pernicous? Yes. And it gets that way because of 'sea lawyers' who will steal anything that isn't nailed down and anything that they can pry loose isn't seen as being nailed down. *Any* publishing activity can remove characters from control of the original author, if you're not careful. Hal Heydt Analyst, Pacific*Bell 510-823-5447 whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 93 01:59:26 GMT From: MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu (Mark 'Mark' Sachs) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Fan Fiction--Copyright Infringement? (LONG) You know, the objections to fanfic by authors generally seem to center around "if I allow people to use my characters, I can be shut out of assorted reprints, rights, and so forth..." There ought to be a way of getting a legal ruling; something on the order of, derivative works created by third parties shall have no effect whatsoever on the copyright rights of the author. Or something like that. I mean, it only makes sense, and I get the feeling some judge is going to get involved in this anyway; not now, perhaps, but in ten or twenty years I could definitely see a fan-fiction piece causing legal trouble for an author. What do you all think? Mark Sachs mbs110@psuvm.psu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 93 03:53:32 GMT From: ctk@well.sf.ca.us (Cassandra T. Kamuchey) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Fan Fiction--Copyright Infringement? A few corrections to my previous post. First, Mercedes Lackey apparently has no direct hand in the "Queen's Own" newsletter. She has simply authorized some fans to serve as a clearing house for each other. Second, "Queen's Own" is not a fanzine, it is a newsletter. Finally, if I understand the newsletter correctly, *every* poem, song, story etc. that a fan writes and sets in Lackey's universe and which is "shared with others" must be accompanied by the fan signing his/her copyright interest over to Lackey. Even if the fan never intends to submit the work to Lackey for consideration or review. That seems overkill to me. The majority of Lackey's audience is pre-teens which also raises some tricky issues for informed consent (although the waiver does require a parent's sig.) So what's a thirteen year old to do - slip the contract underneath the field trip permission slip? ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 93 10:03:22 GMT From: brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Fan Fiction--Copyright Infringement? (LONG) MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu (Mark Sachs) writes: >There ought to be a way of getting a legal ruling; something on the order >of, derivative works created by third parties shall have no effect >whatsoever on the copyright rights of the author. Or something like that. >I mean, it only makes sense, and I get the feeling some judge is going to >get involved in this anyway; not now, perhaps, but in ten or twenty years >I could definitely see a fan-fiction piece causing legal trouble for an >author. There sort of is. It's called "ask permission." If told no, don't write. If told yes, you will probably have to sign a waiver saying something of this sort. Brad Templeton ClariNet Communications Corp. Sunnyvale, CA 408/296-0366 ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 93 16:00:03 GMT From: chuq@apple.com (Crow's Friend Timmy) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Fan Fiction--Copyright Infringement? (LONG) MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu (Mark 'Mark' Sachs) writes: >There ought to be a way of getting a legal ruling; something on the order >of, derivative works created by third parties shall have no effect >whatsoever on the copyright rights of the author. There ARE many many legal rulings already, and they all note that it DOES affect the author. You'd need to rewrite the Berne convention and get all of the signatories to fix this. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@apple.com ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 93 18:19:00 GMT From: goldberg@nymc.edu (RANDY_GOLDBERG) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Marion Zimmer Bradley whheydt@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt) writes: >If Bradley *does* do more any more Darkover anthologies, it will (if I >guess right) be only by invitation to those she has found she can trust to >show professional judgement in matters about copyright and she will >probably flatly refuse to read unsolicited manuscripts in order to >preserve a solid *legal* defense against charges of swiping someone else's >ideas. I'd like to add that MZB is not the first author to figure this out. Anne McCaffrey allows us to "play in her yard," as MZB put it, but with her fully revocable permission. Anything "new" we create (we recently needed an herbal contraceptive to make a story work, for instance), we automatically sign copyright over to her. And her lawyers have forbidden her to read ANY fan fiction set in any of her worlds. It's the only way she can protect herself from lawsuits galore. Cheers. Randy ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 93 01:16:55 GMT From: jean@noao.edu (Jean Goodrich) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Marion Zimmer Bradley My feeling is that the author who created a world should have implicit rights to that world. In this example, I think that even though MZB offered the fan a chance to publish her story, giving permission to write in her world, MZB should have complete freedom to continue to write anything in her world. If the fan published her story, MZB still has the right to publish her own work, with her own characters, in any time period she chooses. It is *HER* world, and the fan would not have had a basis for her story or the chance at financial profit without the originating work of MZB in the first place. Even if MZB's work parallels or disregards the fan's story, she has that inherent right. The only exception I can see to this is in the case of obvious plagiarism of plot, characters, etc. of the fan's creation by the originating author. Unfortunately, the originating author is in a position of power, since she is a published author who has broken "in" and made contacts, and could probably get a plagiarized work published before the fan had a chance to cover herself and prove the work was her own. That may be a good argument for not using someone else's world, or at least if you do, developing your own style. Still, I think that work containing MZB's characters or in any time period whatsoever, which she defined to begin with, are her prerogative. This is something the fan should have to accept. Let's face it, if you can't come up with your own ideas, characters, plot, you'll never really be a writer in your own right. And I think any judge who covers any lawsuit that may come of this situation should penalize the husband for getting involved at all. It's not his story, it's his wife's. If she were the one considering a lawsuit, I might be more understanding. Maybe then she was defending her own work. But her husband has tried to "own" something that is not his, and his asinine behavior has probably ruined his wife's chance of becoming an author. What publisher would want to deal with someone who has attempted to sue someone else in the business? Grasping people like this are a plague on society. It burns me up to hear this, because though the fan herself is not at fault, she has allowed her husband to compromise her, to interfere with MZB's work, and to deny fans like herself the chance to read a long-awaited book. One of MZB's other fan's should sue this woman (and her greedy husband) for interfering with their right to read an author's work. Boy, don't I wish! Jean ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 93 23:55:29 GMT From: chuq@apple.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Marion Zimmer Bradley KitchenRN@SSD0.LAAFB.AF.MIL writes: >I don't understand why MZB said this could make her a misanthrope. Because of one bad apple, she's no longer able to do what she wants. So she feels badly about having to protect herself from the bad apples by tossing out all the good apples as well. >From what I read here, the fan didn't do anything wrong, That's because what you read didn't include the demand for co-authorship on MZB's book, nor did it mention the threatened lawsuit against Marion, or some of the other, nastier stuff. >Couldn't she just work out a deal with the fan so that the fan would sign >an agreement not to sue, or something, so that the book could be >published? She tried. The fan, shall we say, was uncooperative. Chuq Von Rospach chuq@apple.com ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 93 18:44:53 GMT From: whheydt@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Marion Zimmer Bradley jean@noao.edu (Jean Goodrich) writes: >The only exception I can see to this is in the case of obvious plagiarism >of plot, characters, etc. of the fan's creation by the originating author. This is the point where the copyright laws, lawyers and the courts get involved and why the whole thing is such a mess. >Let's face it, if you can't come up with your own ideas, characters, plot, >you'll never really be a writer in your own right. An excellent point, but writing in someone else's universe affords the advantage of a place to practice before the beginning writer is good enough to construct their own place. >And I think any judge who covers any lawsuit that may come of this >situation should penalize the husband for getting involved at all. It's >not his story, it's his wife's. If she were the one considering a lawsuit, >I might be more understanding. Maybe then she was defending her own work. >But her husband has tried to "own" something that is not his, and his >asinine behavior has probably ruined his wife's chance of becoming an >author. What publisher would want to deal with someone who has attempted >to sue someone else in the business? Grasping people like this are a >plague on society. While I agree with your conclusion, your premise doesn't completely support it. The husband has a clear financial interest in his wife's work ("community property" and all that). >It burns me up to hear this, because though the fan herself is not at >fault, she has allowed her husband to compromise her, to interfere with >MZB's work, and to deny fans like herself the chance to read a >long-awaited book. One of MZB's other fan's should sue this woman (and her >greedy husband) for interfering with their right to read an author's work. >Boy, don't I wish! An interesting proposal... Hal Heydt Analyst, Pacific*Bell 510-823-5447 whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 93 23:23:13 GMT From: 21757gjl@ibm.cl.msu.edu (Gary J LaPointe) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Fan Fiction--Copyright Infringement? V18 #90 >On one issue presented, I think Lackey is on shaky ground. Since her >agent is (to a degree) *her* creature, she has leverage, influence and >some control of what actions the *agent* takes in copyright cases. She >can, after all, *fire* the agent (cutting off any income for future and >possibly present) work altogether. This *should* have a powerful sobering >effect on any agent with a successful client and an eye for future income. I could be wrong BUT I think most people have a CONTRACT with their agent. You cannot fire a contract. People want a good agent to negotiate a good price (etc.) for their books. They also give the agent the power to sue, schedule promotional stuff etc. part of the agent's side of the contract. Personally I see a difficult time in stopping people (legally) from distributing stuff on the internet. I suppose if you mail stuff out you are GIVING it away but if you put it on a machine people are TAKING it off your harddrive. A fine line I admit but you can't legally hassle someone for wrting something and having other people make xeroxes of it, can you??? Gary J LaPointe Michigan State University 21757gjl@ibm.cl.msu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 93 00:16:38 GMT From: whheydt@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt) Reply-to: sf-lovers-misc@Rutgers.Edu Subject: Re: Marion Zimmer Bradley goldberg@NYMC.EDU (RANDY_GOLDBERG) writes: >whheydt@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt) writes: >>If Bradley *does* do more any more Darkover anthologies, it will (if I >>guess right) be only by invitation to those she has found she can trust >>to show professional judgement in matters about copyright and she will >>probably flatly refuse to read unsolicited manuscripts in order to >>preserve a solid *legal* defense against charges of swiping someone >>else's ideas. > >I'd like to add that MZB is not the first author to figure this out. Anne >McCaffrey allows us to "play in her yard," as MZB put it, but with her >fully revocable permission. Anything "new" we create (we recently needed >an herbal contraceptive to make a story work, for instance), we >automatically sign copyright over to her. And her lawyers have forbidden >her to read ANY fan fiction set in any of her worlds. It's the only way >she can protect herself from lawsuits galore. Thinking over these two cases, plus the mess that Chelsea Quinn Yarbro has been going through, I understand from friends at Other Change of Hobbit" that those particular damnfools have at least *started* to understand the mess they made - I think the SF writing market is about to split into a *3* tier system.... At the top will be those that write solely in their own universes. In the middle will be those that can be trusted to write in someone else's universe and at the bottom will be the fen either writing otherwise publishable material but without 'sanction' (because they haven't earned the trust) or unpublishable material. We may wind up discussing which authors are riding which lines between major groups - i.e. the ones that sometimes write in their own universes and sometimes in someone else's. The hard transition will be to get to publish in a known universe. For that, an up and coming writer will have to demonstrate that they can be *trusted* that close to another persons copyright without abusing the privilege. Hal Heydt Analyst, Pacific*Bell 510-823-5447 whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************