------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ÿ@SUBJECT:(24 Aug 93) Soc.Culture.Greek FAQ - Culture Message-ID: Newsgroup: soc.culture.greek,soc.answers,news.answers Organization: National Technical Univ. of Athens Archive-name: greek-faq/culture Last-modified: 1993/08/24 Soc.Culture.Greek Frequently Asked Questions and Answers ======================================================== (Culture) ========= Last Change: 20 July 1993 Many FAQs, including this one, are available on the archive site rtfm.mit.edu [18.70.0.224] in the directory pub/usenet/news.answers. The name under which a FAQ is archived appears in the Archive-name line at the top of the article. This FAQ is archived as greek-faq/culture There's a mail server on that machine. You send a e-mail message to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu containing the keyword "help" (without quotes!) in the message body. Items Changed: -------------- None (Ugh!) -- Lines which got changed, have the `#' character in front of them. Added lines are prepended with a `+' Removed lines are just removed. Use 'diff' to locate these changes. I have included my comments within braces '[' and ']'. Nikolaos Fotis ======================================================================== This text is (C)Copyright 1992, 1993 of Nikolaos C. Fotis. You can copy freely this file, provided you keep this copyright notice intact. Compiled by Nikolaos (Nick) C. Fotis, e-mail: nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr Please contact me for updates,corrections, etc. Disclaimer: that's only a hasty collection of texts and information as I (or other people) remember it, so this file is worth only what you paid for it (and even less! ;-) ) ======================================================================== Subjects: ========= 1. Bookstores that carry Greek books 2. Greek cuisine -- recommended books?? 3. Greek wines -- reference book(s) 4. The 12 Greek Gods : who are they? 5. Greek Popular Music 6. Greek Mythology - Various questions, reference books 7. Greek shortwave (SW) stations 8. Greek Coffee, Reading Turkish grounds 9. Ways for a Vegan to survive in Greece 10. What was the Mythical Labyrinth?? 11. Greek Muses (in Greek) 12. References on (Greek) Vlachs 13. Stores that sell Greek music Proposed future subjects: [ Please send me info to stuff these subjects!! -- nfotis] Graduate studies in Greece that are interesting for non-Greeks? (eg. archaeology) [any ideas/info/... ??] ========================================================================== I ask the people to send me stuff in order to make this file more complete. I'm just a kind of editor, and I cannot know everything. YOU'll determine if this FAQ is good or not! ========================================================================= 1. Bookstores that carry Greek books ==================================== Here are some addresses of stores/institutions selling/publishing Greek books/periodicals/newsletters, in no particular order: US/Canada : ----------- University of Toronto Bookstore 214 College Street Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5T 3A1 tel.: (416) 978 7905 (ancient Greek) 978 7923 (modern Greek) (ask for the books used by the Classics department ancient/modern Greek courses) Modern Greek Studies Association Box 1826, New Haven, Connecticut 06508 U.S.A. (ask for their Journal of Modern Greek Studies, their newsletter, bulletin, conferences, etc.) Princeton University Press Princeton Modern Greek Studies 41 William Street Princeton, NJ 08540 U.S.A. tel.: (609) 258 4900 (800) PRS ISBN or 777 4726 (orders) (ask for a list of their books on modern Greek studies) Pella publishing company, inc. 337 West 36th Street New York, NY 10018 U.S.A. (ask for a list of their books in general) Schoenhof's Foreign Books Cambridge, MA. tel: 617-547-8855. Greek books can be purchased in Montreal at the Greek Community Centre. For more info. (prices, etc.) write to: Communaute Hellenique de Montreal Centre des Etudes Helleniques 5777, ave. Wilderton, Montreal (Quebec), Canada H3S 2V7 Attn. M. Chatzinikolaou Tel. (514) 738 2421 (until 17:00 EDT) (514) 340 3576 (after 17:00 EDT) UK : ---- [ The area code is 071 ] The Hellenic Book Service 122 Charing Cross Road WC2 London phone 836-7071 Zeno 6 Denmark Street WC2 London phone 836-2522 Kimon Bookshop 87-88 Plender Street NW1 London phone 387-8809 Located in Greece: ------------------ Olympic Book Center 16 Efroniou 116 34 Athens Greece Avastatikes Ekdoseis Bibliopwleio Diovusiou Notn Karbia Asklnpiou 67 GR-106 80 A0HNA Ekdoseis - Palaiobibliopwleio "KOYLTOYRA" Mavtzarou 4-(Solwnos 54) GR 106 72 A0HNA Ekdoseis - Bibliopwleio Stratns G. Filippotns Solwnos 69 & Asklnpiou GR 106 79 A0HNA Ekdoseis Aposperitns Eressou 9 A0HNA Ekdoseis Dwrikos Ippokratous 72 A0HNA Ekdoseis Epikairotnta Mauromixaln 60 GR 106 80 A0HNA FAX : 36.36.083 - 36.07.382 Ekdoseis Pella 0eof. Papadopoulos & Yios O.E. Kwletth 15 & Emm. Mpevakn A0HNA Ekdoseis Stoxastns Mauromixaln 39 GR 106 80 A0HNA FAX : 36.09.197 Ekdoseis Kardamitsa Ippokratous 8 GR 106 79 A0HNA 2. Greek cuisine -- recommended books?? ======================================= Look at gatekeeper.dec.com (anonymous ftp), under the directory pub/recipes (there's also a compressed tar file that contains all the files). Familiar names were: (I just did a 'dir', and these were some names I found familiar) avgolemono, avgolemono-2, baklava, briami, kourabiedes, lamb-kebab, lasagna-1..4, margarita-1, meat-kebabs, melomacarona, moussaka, spanakopita, spanakopita-2 From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) ---------------------------- I can't attest to their authenticity, but the recipes in Jack Santa Maria's "Greek Vegetarian Cooking" are absolutely yummy, which is enough for me. It's in print in the UK (Hutchinson, I think) and you can get it in most large bookshops. 3. Greek wines -- reference book(s) ================================= Lambert-Gocs, Miles. "The Wines of Greece". Faber & Faber London, 1989(?) It contains over 2 hundred Greek wine brands, their characteristics, history of large and small producers, etc.etc. 4. The 12 Greek Gods : who are they? ====================================== It's rather easy to remember most of the 12 Gods of Greek Ancient Mythology. The most easy to remember are: Zeus, Hera, Athena, Poseidon, Aphrodite, Hephaestus, Ares, Apollo, Hermes, Demeter, Artemis The number 12 is the most troublesome: > From: cla02@seq1.keele.ac.uk (Richard Wallace) > Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek > Subject: Re: REQUEST: Greek Gods úÿ The most usual list has Hestia as number twelve. She was the goddess of hearth and home, and so a rather passive figure, and from time to time people seem to have thought that she didn't really earn her place, and put someone else in instead. So far as I know, Hades is one of the twelve only in the list in Plato's Phaedrus (and perhaps, by implication, in the Laws), and there Plato makes it quite clear that HE has made the decision to leave Hestia out. I think Hades does not figure in the normal lists because they are the twelve OLYMPIAN gods, and Hades does not normally come to Olympus (though Poseidon does). Sometimes you get Dionysus instead of Hestia. He is a rather aberrant god anyway (either because he was a late-comer to Greek religion or for some other reason) - in any case he doesn't normally appear in the list. There is some evidence that there was a local tradition at Olympia which substituted Kronos, Rhea, and Alpheios (the local river god) for Hephaistos, Demeter, and Hestia, and there are other cases of the insertion of local gods into the list in particular localities, presumably out of local patriotism. Mostly, they referred to them simply as 'the twelve', no doubt leaving it open to each individual to write in his own list! [ Personally, I feel that Dionysus was mentioned most often in the mainland Greece mythology, at least in Attica -- nfotis ] From: G0900@vmcms.csuohio.edu ----------------------------- THE MAIN GODS AND GODDESSES OF THE ANCIENT GREEK RELIGION Greek Latin meaning Name Name --------- ------ Zeus Zeus, Jupiter Master of the sky, father of the gods and men. Hera Juno Wife of Zeus, protector of marriage Poseidon Neptune Brother of Zeus, god of the sea Athena Minerva Goddess of wisdom, protector of arts and crafts Apollo Apollo God of the sun and music Artemis Diana Apollo's sister, goddess of hunting Aphrodite Venus Goddess of beauty and love Hephaestus Vulcan God of fire, protector of metal workers Ares Mars God of war Hermes Mercury Messenger of gods and god of trade Demeter Ceres Goddess of agriculture Persephone, Kore Proserpina Demeter's daughter, queen of the Underworld (Hades) Pluton, Ades Pluton King of the Underworld Dionysus, Bacchos Bacchus God of wine, vegetation and fertility Asklepios Aesculapius God of medicine 5. Greek Popular Music ======================= [This is from an article originally posted to soc.culture.greek by Jon Corelis.] Greece has an exceptionally rich and varied musical tradition, so that it's difficult to know where to start. But the most popular Greek music, both in the country and with foreigners, is probably music of the two types called "rebetika" and "laika." Rebetika music has sometimes been called the Greek blues, and although musically it's not like the blues at all, the comparison is an apt one in that like the blues, rebetika music grew out of a specific urban subculture and was associated with a certain type of life-style, in which poverty, oppression, sex, alcohol, drugs, and violence played prominent roles. Rebetika music basically grew out of the culture of the Greek refugees from Asia Minor in the early 1920's. These people were settled in Athens and other areas and continued to live for the most part in their own communities, usually under conditions of great hardship. They created through the fusion of the Anatolian musical modes they brought with them with native mainland Greek musical traditions a unique new type of music called rebetika (no one really knows where the name came from) which reflected both the rough, oppressed condition of their lives and the resilience, toughness, and good humor which enabled them to survive. Rebetika is also similar to the blues in the development of its social position. In the twenties and thirties it was popular with the urban poor who created it, later it became scorned as "low-class" music, and then in the sixties it experienced a revival, becoming immensely popular among young people, some of whom formed their own rebetika bands to revive the music of the great rebetika artists of the past. Giving a discography for Greek music is always a bit difficult, since records tend to rapidly go in and out of print. But I'll give the names of a few popular records which are probably still available. Perhaps the best place to start is with the soundtrack album from the film "Rebetiko," issued in Greece by CBS records. This film, which told the life story of a typical rebetika singer, included numerous musical numbers, some of which were old rebetika songs, others of which were especially written for the film in rebetika style. Rebetiko is one of the very best Greek records ever, and remains immensely popular in Greece. For the real thing -- collections of rebetika taken from the original recordings of the 1920-1950 period -- an excellent series is the six volume Rebetiki Istoria, issued in Greece by EMI. If you can find all six of these, you'll have about the best introduction to rebetika you could hope for. A very interesting record issued in the U.S. is Greek-Oriental Smyrnaic-Rebetic Songs and Dances (Arhoolie/Folkloric 9033,) which concentrates on the early rebetika style which still retained much of its Eastern flavor. As for other records, it's probably better to give the names of some of the better artists rather than listing individual records that may no longer be in print. So look for the names Toundas, Tsitsanis, Markos Vamvakaris, Rosa Eskanazi, Sotiria Bellou, Papaiouannou, and Rita Abatsi. Fortunately for us English speakers, there exists a very good book in English on rebetika: Road to Rebetika by Gail Holst (Third ed., 1983, Athens, Harvey.) This book is sometimes found in university libraries in the U.S., and can probably be obtained by your local library via interlibrary loan service. You could also try writing the publisher at Denise Harvey & Company, Lambrou Fotiadis 6, Mets, Athens 407, Greece, and see if you get a response. It may be a bit of trouble to track this book down, but it's absolutely worth it if you want to investigate this type of music. The other type of music is a looser category sometimes called "laika," which basically means just "popular music." This is the music "everyone" listens to -- sort of like rock music in the U.S. And like rock it includes music of many different subtypes. Again, it will probably be better to give names rather than individual recordings. One of the best, and probably the most popular, of the artists in this field is George Dalaras, who has worked in a wide range of genres -- recently he has branched out to include Spanish music in his repertoire. Another good artist, who has often worked with Dalaras, is Haris Alexiou. These two are perhaps the best introduction to laika music at its best. A singer with a smaller but devoted following is Arleta (she goes by her first name only,) who tends to do relaxed but often very beautiful folk-type songs, with minimal acoustic accompaniment. The composers Hadjidakis and Theoradakis have innumerable records and have to some extent become popular outside of Greece. Perhaps I should also note that there is a certain amount of overlap between rebetika and laika: Dalaras has recorded several rebetika albums, Alexiou usually includes some rebetika songs on her records, and Hadjidakis frequently uses rebetika songs as the basis for his orchestral arrangements. A final note for anyone who plans a trip to Greece: the best place I've found to buy Greek music is the record shop Pop 11, at Pindarou 38 (corner of Tsakalof) in the Kolonaki section of Athens. They have a huge selection, the staff are knowledgable and speak English, and they take credit cards. The staff will also be able to advise you on places to hear rebetica and other Greek music in Athens. 6. Greek Mythology - Various questions, reference books ======================================================= From: ccc@cs.toronto.edu ("Christina C. Christara") Subject: Re: Mythology questions Date: 16 Oct 92 01:12:28 GMT kambizm@fidibus.uio.no (Kambiz Iranpour Mobarekeh) writes: >I am looking for the names of some mythological personalities >whom I read about once. One is the guy who still rolls >a stone up the hill again and again. This is Sisyphos (Sisufos) who tried several times to avoid death; he actually succeded many times. He visited Hades (Adns) and he found some tricks to come back to life. In ceramic paintings, he is depicted pushing a stone towards the top of a mountain, and when he is almost at the end, the stone slips and rolls down fast. He was from Korinthos. His struggle symbolises people's struggle against death, something he did not eventually avoid himself. > The other is one who is >thirsty standing in a river in Hades trying to drink water but >the water disappears each time. What was his name? This is probably Tantalos, the king of Ludia (part of Asia Minor, east of Smyrna). He was invited to dinner by the Gods, but he could not reach anything, neither food, nor drink. He was punished so, because when he invited the Gods to dinner instead of sacrificing an animal for them, he sacrificed his son, Pelops (Pelopas), whose name is the first part of the name "Peloponnese." Tantalos was also punished, because he gave the recipe of ambrosia and nectar (the food and drink of the Gods) to the people. (This story is similar to that of Prometheus, who gave fire to people). > Third question >is was it Ogyas (or Ogias) barns which were cleaned by Hercul? This must be the Avgias barns (stauloi Augeiou). Hercules (Hraklns) was supposed to clean the barns of Augeias, king of Helis (Hlis), in western Peloponnese. This was necessary, because the dirt (shit) of the cows of Augeias was so much that deseases would spread to the people. Hercules had 1 day to complete the job, otherwise he would be a slave (doulos) for the rest of his life. Would he complete the job, he would get a part of the kingdom and the daughter of the king as his wife. Hercules did clean the barns (according to some mythology version, he turned 2 rivers towards the barns and all dirt was gone by the water), but then Augeias did not keep his promise and Hercules fought against him. I don't remember if he won (I wasn't there, anyway :-)). From: nwbernst@unix.amherst.edu (Neil Bernstein) ------------------------------- [regarding the last question] Herakles (Latinized to Hercules) cleaned the stables of King Augeas. You may be thinking of the island of Ogygia, where Odysseus was restrained by the nymph Kalypso after his Great Wanderings and before he returns to Ithaka. [ nfotis: we could continue ad infinitum with Greek Mythology, which is *very* rich and engaging, IMHO. You're advised to read some good books about Greek Mythology. cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) suggests these two books: > A good reference book for Greek mythology is Robert Graves' book the Greek > Myths which has copious references to the original sources. Don't believe his > personal commentaries however as they are idiosyncratic to put it > mildly. Another book that might interest you is H.J.Rose's A Handbook of > Greek Mythology. Note: I didn't read those books, so don't sue me it these aren't good for your tastes! ] úÿ 7. Greek shortwave (SW) stations ================================ From: pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras; TA PhD) Subject: Re: Need Help finding SW stations! Try (around midnight UTC) 9.395MHz and 9.420MHz. Other frequencies (time is important) are 9.425MHz, 11.595MHz and 11.645MHz (one of the last two is not the Voice of Greece, but the Radio Station of Macedonia, from the city of Thessaloniki, which simply relays the local program; can be heard clearly in London after 1pm UTC). [ Anyone who can add more?? -- nfotis ] 8. Greek Coffee, Reading Turkish grounds ======================================== wfk@cellar.org (William F. Kershner) writes: -------------- >Can anyone explain the art of fortune-telling by reading Turkish coffee >grounds? I enjoy my coffee metrio and would like to know more about it. From: ccc@cs.toronto.edu ("Christina C. Christara") ------------------------ First, all what you are going to read after this line is a fraud! The part of the coffee cup which is positioned closest to the person drinking it is the part of the heart. There all the sentimental issues are depicted... The opposite part of the cup describes the "professional" issues. In general it is good for the grounds not to be very dark. So when you drink your coffee, before it ends, shake it a bit, then turn it upside down, so that most grounds go away. You make your future better! If you have a lot of imagination you look at the shapes the grounds have done and talk about roads, houses, airplanes, trees, etc. The bottom of the cup is the deep part of the heart... You make a wish and put your finger there. If the finger leaves a clear mark then the wish will come true. If the finger does not catch all the grounds, then the wish will not become true ... So twist your finger a bit, when you put in the bottom of the cup. But do this without the person telling you your fortune to know about it! Well, the fraud is over. From kk@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com (Konstantinos Konstantinides) and jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis): ------------------------ There is a monograph on the topic (in Greek) by Elias Petropoulos, O tourkikos kafes en elladi (Athens, Ekdoseis Grammata, 1979). The monograph has lots of figures and discusses the art of coffee reading in Greek prisons. A very interesting book, with many illustrations, including some of coffee-grounds patterns with their supposed meanings. The title, of course, is deliberately provocative. In case anyone wasn't upset enough by it, Petropoulous makes a point of beginning his book by saying, "Oi Tourkoi, opou deon na thewrountai paterades twn neoellinwn, metaksu allwn agathwn kai deinwn pou mas eklirodotisan einai kai o kafes." 9. Ways for a Vegan to survive in Greece ======================================== For Vegans (NOT vegetarians - they eat cheese and eggs and milk etc.), who are people who don't eat animal products at all, there are some resources: From: cpbuehrer@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu ------------------------------------- Well...I just spent three weeks in Greece...most of that was spent in Athens. And I'm a vegetarian. I remember a restaurant in Plaka in Athens called Eden. It's a vegan/vegetarian restaurant...priced pretty decently. They had a ton of bizarre dishes that I'm not going to even attempt to start listing them. Suffice it to say that I could have eaten three meals a day there for those three weeks and never would have had to eat the same thing twice. There's also a fast food restaurant chain called "Goody's"...it's alot like Wendy's or BK in the states. They had alot of different types of salads available. I usually got this one called Mexican salad...which was beans, lettuce, corn, radishes, and some other veggies. Anyway, those salads were completely free of animal products (don't order the salad dressing though!). And then you can always go to the marketplaces or supermarkets and stock up on fresh fruits, veggies, breads, etc...those sorts of things are also readily available. Probably the only problem your students will have (and personally I don't consider this a problem) is that they'll have to eat a lot of raw uncooked things...if they don't care about that though then they won't ever go hungry! From: trevore@vast.unsw.edu.au (Trevor Elbourne (Supr. Hell) BE) ------------------------------ Well Greeks have an intresting custom that might help. On religious ocasions they faast. When I mean Greeks honestly faast I mean all products that come from animals with blood are excluded. A possible exception were the food for fasting would not be OK is some sea food. Like kalamari or octupous. But that would be obvious. So there is a range off food set up for the fasting that would fit very well. I don't live in Greece now but I am sure if you ask for food for the fasting then you should have no problem. There is quite a bit of it. 10. What was the Mythical Labyrinth?? ===================================== From: nextug@ac.dal.ca ---------------------- There seem to be two schools of thought: One is that the palace at Knossos was itself also referred to as The Labyrinth. Gerhard Sasse in his book "Crete" (APA Publications, 1990) writes: "The Greek designation of part of the palace, if not the whole of it, as the Labyrinth, could also mean "House of the Double Axe", if the derivation of the word labyrinth from the Anatolian word 'Labrys' (double axe) is accepted. "In Knossos several of these artifacts were found, in the so-called "Shrine of the Double Axe", and the holy sign of the double axe was scored into pillars and on votive objects -- as in other Cretan palaces." On the other hand The Labyrinth may have actually been a passageway of caves in close proximity to Knossos. Lawrence Durrell in his book "The Greek Islands" (Vicking Press, New York, 1978) writes: "To revert for a moment to the vexing question of the labyrinth, it is important to make a distinction between a man-made maze and a labyrinth constructed by nature; and the natural geological labyrinth situated near Gortyna has for long been a candidate for the honours of being the original lair of the Minotaur. Sceptics have declared that it is simply an abandoned quarry with a few corridors but, while I have not completely explored it myself -- for lack of an Ariadne and a ball of thread -- I think it is more suggestive than that. "I can vouch ... for the fact that the place is known as "The Labyrinth" in the local speech. To the best of my knowledge the whole of it has never been explored, though the villagers thereabouts claim the internal network of corridors span an area of some ten kilometers. One must, as always, subtract a bit of peasant exaggeration, but nevertheless the place is impressive ..." A certain Reverend Tozer who wrote a travel book in the 19th century (haven't the reference at hand) wrote: "Our host, Captain George, undertook to be our guide and accordingly next morning we started in his company and, fording the stream close under the Acropolis of Gortyna, ascended the hills towards the north-west and in an hour's time reached the place ... It is entered by an aperture of no great size in the mountainside, where the rocks are of clayey limestone, forming horizontal layers; and inside we found what looks almost like a flat roof, while chambers and passages run off from the entrance in various directions ... We were furnished each with a taper and descended by a passage on both sides of which the fallen stones had been piled up; the roof above us varies from four to sixteen feet in height. Winding about, we came to an upright stone, the work of a modern Ariadne, set there to show the way, for at intervals other passages branched off the main one, and anyone who entered without a light would be hopelessly lost. Captain George described to us how for three years during the late war (1867-9) the Christian inhabitants of the neighbouring villages, to the number of five hundred, and he among them, had lived there as their predecessors had done during the former insurrection, to escape the Turks who had burned their homes and carried off their flocks and herds ..." If you wish to pursue this issue seriously I would reccommend you go to your local library and do some research. A couple of books that might get you started (in addition to the ones already cited): AUTHOR: Bord, Janet, fl. 1972- TITLE: Mazes and labyrinths of the world / IMPRINT: London : Latimer New Dimensions, 1976. AUTHOR: Matthews, William Henry, 1882- TITLE: Mazes and labyrinths : their history and development / IMPRINT: New York : Dover Publications, 1970. AUTHOR: Doob, Penelope Reed. TITLE: The idea of the labyrinth from classical antiquity through the Middle A> IMPRINT: Ithaca : Cornell University Press, 1990. I don't know anything about the "Cave of the Cyclops" near Sougia. Are you certain that it exists? I'd be surprised if there were any pictures of it even if it does exist, let alone ones available via ftp. Not far away (a few km from Asogires, to the west of Sougia) is the well known C ave of Soure in which the 99 Holy Fathers lived. Also east of Rodovani (also west of Sougia) is the Cave of Skotini in which ceramic remains from the Classical epoch (550-67 B.C.) have been found. To the east is the world famous Samaria Gorge and en route is the Tzanis Cave where legend has it that on moonless nights a shepherd, enchanted by a water sprite, plays his lyre and sings of sorrow ... Good luck! Christopher Majka. 11. Greek Muses (in Greek) ========================== [ Can anyoe make an acceptable translation?? - nfotis ] From: peter@ENGR.TRINITY.EDU (Peter Vafeades) ----------------------------- Mouses, oi: 0ugateres tns Mvnmosuvns kai tou Dia n' tns Armovias n' tou Ouravou kai tns Gaias, 0eotntes tns poinsns, tns mousikns, tou xorou, tns astrovomias kai gevika twv texvwv kai twv epistnmwv. O ari0mos tous poikillei: allote treis, allote efta kai telika oi e3ns evvia: Kalliopn, n spoudaiotern apo oles, prostatria tns epikns poinsns Kleiw tns Istorias, EUTERPH tns mousikns, Polumvia twv umvwv kai tns mimikns, Teryixorn tou xorou kai tns xorikns poinsns, Eratw tns lurikns poinsns, Melpwmevn tns tragwdias, 0aleia tns kwmwdias kai Ouravia tns astrovomias. Arxngos tous 0ewrouvtav o Apollwvas (Mousngetns). Topos latreias tous ntav ektos apo tov omwvumo lofo stnv A0nva kuriws o Elikwvas stn Boiwtia. Oi arxaioi Ellnves tous eixav afierwsei tis pnges Agavippn kai Ippokrnvn. Agapnmevoi tous topoi e3allou ntav o Parvassos kai oi Delfoi (0eog. 1 k. e3. 52.75 k.a. Om Um. 25. Apollod. A13) ====================================================================== 12. References on (Greek) Vlachs [NEW] ================================ From: baloglou@oswego.Oswego.edu -------------------------------- In response to a recent posting on s.c.bulgarian about Vlachs, I would like to quote a few references, as well as some information on Greek Vlachs (Koutsovlachs) from Evangelos Averoff-Tositsas' book "The political side of the Koutsovlach affair" (first published in 1948). First, the references, which, according to the author, cover all theories concerning the roots of that Balkan group/tribe/nation: A. Keramopoulou. Ti eivai oi koutsoblaxoi. Athens, 1939. úÿ M. Xrusoxoou. Blaxoi kai koutsoblaxoi. Athens, 1909. Th. Capidan. Les Macedo-roumains du Pinde. Paris, 1937. N. Jorga. Introduction a la connaissance de la Roumanie et des Roumains. Bucarest, 1927. G. Bratianu. Une enigme et un miracle historique, le peuple roumain. Bucarest, 1937. B. Recatas. L' etat actuel du bilinguisme chez les Macedo-roumains du Pinde et le role de la femme dans la language. Paris, 1934. A.J.B. Wace-M.S. Thompson. The nomads of the Balkans. London, 1914. Ilia Barbulescu. Relations des Roumains avec les Serbes, les Boulgares, les Grecs et la Croatie en liaison avec la question macedo-roumaine. Jasi, 1921. Jovan Cvijic. La Peninsule Balcanique. Paris, 1918. Jacques Ancel. Peuples et nations des Balkans. Paris, 1926. G.A.Virgilij. La Questione Rumeliota. Bitonto, 1909. Two additional references (in Greek), somewhat more specialized, are: K. Nikolaidou. Etumologikov Le3ikov tns Koutsoblaxikns Glwssns. Athens, 1909. A. Xatznmixaln. Oi ev tw Ellnvosxoleiw Metsobou dida3avtes kai didax8evtes. Iwavviva, 1940. In his book, Mr. Averoff-Tositsas focuses on the efforts by Romania and Italy, prior to WW II and during WW II, respectively, to claim the Vlachs of Greece--a semi-nomadic people of (usually) Greek conscience who speak a Romanian/Latin dialect--as their brethren. Romanian efforts were focused on the establishment of schools and scholarships luring the poor, while Italian efforts were based on military occupation and the fascinating claim that the Vlachs were the descendants of the Fifth Roman Legion! Romanian propaganda was more successful, resorting even to transplanted songs about "the pretty gal waiting beyond the Black Sea" or "the brother in the great Vlach plain"; the end of a song is particularly illuminating: "K' nti foumlou atselou gritsesklou "Because that Greek tobacco Ntounikat i minti alorou" has darkened their mind" The origins of and relations among Vlachs living in various parts of the Balkans are complicated and certainly not known to me; I understand that those of southern Yugoslavia & Bulgaria often consider themselves to be Greek (no statistics available), but I guess this changes as one gets closer to Romania. (I hope other netters can provide more information.) Within Greece, Vlachs are considered to be Greek, although somewhat different; it is said that their men make good husbands, while their women can be fatally attractive, "having young men stabbing each other by their aprons" ("stis podies tous sfazovtai pallnkaria"). I hope to provide some personal impressions, based on a trip passing through the Vlach village of Samarina, in a future posting (scg, only). I would like to conclude with a few words about Mr. Averoff-Tositsas, who passed away on 1/2/90: a Vlach himself, he was a major figure of post-war Greek politics, having played a major role in the Cyprus affair, the passage from dictatorship to democracy, etc; in addition to this, he was an author and play-writer, art collector, cheese-maker and owner of 20,000 almond trees. ====================================================================== 13. Stores that sell Greek music ================================ There are many stores. Here I add what's been noted on soc.culture.greek: From: msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis Syrimis) ---- Few days ago I posted a phone number for a company that sells greek music. To day I received mail from people who tried to call the company but the got a message saying the # was not available. So here's the number again: 1-800-4530013,(I dialed it from Illinois, and works fine). Another no. showing on the cataloque is 1-718-3839455. From: ingria@bbn.com (Bob Ingria) ---- Someone mentioned looking for Greek music stores in Astoria. One place that carries Greek CDs and tapes (also videos) in Astoria is Corfu Center (718)-728-7212 There is also a Greek store on 42nd street just across from the Port Authority Bus Terminal, again with CDs, tapes, and videos. From: sarandrea@rdvax.enet.dec.com ---- The best place I've found for Greek music is Greek Video Records & Tapes, Inc., 394 McGuinness Blvd., Brooklyn, New York, U.S.A. 11222, phone 718-383-9455, FAX 718-383-5313. You can request copies of their catalogues: 1. Video Catalog: over 1200 titles of Greek videotapes 2. Compact Disc Catalog: over 800 selections of Greek CDs 3. New General Cassette Catalog: over 1200 selections of Greek Cassettes This place is the best source for music. Most of the retail Greek stores buy their music and videos from here, so they also sell wholesale. ====================================================================== End of Cultural Part of the FAQ -- Nick (Nikolaos) Fotis National Technical Univ. of Athens, Greece HOME: 16 Esperidon St., InterNet : nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr Halandri, GR - 152 32 UUCP: mcsun!pythia!theseas!nfotis Athens, GREECE FAX: (+30 1) 77 84 578 *****************************************************************Last-modified: 1993/08/24 Soc.Culture.Greek Frequently Asked Questions and Answers ======================================================== (Technical Information) ======================= Last Change: 20 July 1993 Many FAQs, including this one, are available on the archive site rtfm.mit.edu [18.70.0.224] in the directory pub/usenet/news.answers. The name under which a FAQ is archived appears in the Archive-name line at the top of the article. This FAQ is archived as greek-faq/technical There's a mail server on that machine. You send a e-mail message to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu containing the keyword "help" (without quotes!) in the message body. Items Changed: -------------- -------------- Lines which got changed, have the `#' character in front of them. Added lines are prepended with a `+' Removed lines are just removed. Use 'diff' to locate these changes. I have included my comments within braces '[' and ']'. Nikolaos Fotis ======================================================================== This text is (C)Copyright 1992, 1993 of Nikolaos C. Fotis. You can copy freely this file, provided you keep this copyright notice intact. Compiled by Nikolaos (Nick) C. Fotis, e-mail: nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr Please contact me for updates,corrections, etc. Disclaimer: that's only a hasty collection of texts and information as I (or other people) remember it, so this file is worth only what you paid for it (and even less! ;-) ) ======================================================================== First, I wish to thank publicly the following people: Spiros Triantafyllopoulos P." Iatroudakis Achilles Voliotis Yiannis Moschovakis for their help in making the initial list more clear and complete. Second, that's only a hasty collection of texts and information as I (or other people) remember it, so this file is worth only what you paid for it (and even less! ;-) ) Subjects: ========= 1. What is the Soc.Culture.Greek newsgroup?? a. Newsgroup charter b. Network etiquette. c. How does one receive soc.culture.greek without USENET access?? 2. What's needed in order to have Greek characters in my computer? a. PCs b. PCs with MS Windows c. Mac d. Amiga e. Atari f. Other 3. Internet/BITNET/UUCP sites in Greece? a. InterNet sites b. BITNET/EARN sites c. UUCP sites d. Internet providers 4. What standards exist for inclusion of Greek characters into ASCII text? 5. How do I typeset greek with troff/TeX/WP/... ?? a. TeX/LaTeX b. Other typesetting systems 6. Greek fonts into X Windows 7. Backgammon servers [ New - Moved from cultural part ] Proposed future subjects: [ Please send me info to stuff these subjects!! -- nfotis] [any ideas/info/... ??] ============== I ask the people to send me stuff in order to make this file more complete. I'm just a kind of editor, and I cannot know everything. YOU'll determine if this FAQ is good or not! ====================================================================== 1. What is the Soc.Culture.Greek newsgroup?? ============================================ a. Newsgroup charter ==================== [ From David Lawrence: ] soc.culture.greek predates news.groups. The only description that can be found is: soc.culture.greek Newsgroup about Greeks [ So, we could codify ourselves a 'defacto' charter. Does anyone want to submit stuff here? ] b. Network etiquette ==================== [ Excerpted from Eugene Miya's Draft FAQ in comp.graphics.visualization: ] We assume you have read news.announce.newusers and that you understand network informalities. This group is not moderated, and this is one experiment in self-moderation (education). If you have questions, ask you system administrator. If you are the system administrator, use MAIL, and ask your net neighbors. Do not post TESTS here. Special testing groups exist to acknowledge your posts. Test in misc.test, or in your locale: e.g., ba.test, ca.test, na.test, etc. Some people believe the charter should be posted. The name of the group should sufficiently convey the purpose of this group. Flame wars: 1) Flame using mail. Failing that 2) Cut down on the number of groups in your Newsgroups: line. 3) Use Followup-To: a line with fewer newsgroups. Make certain you read all posts before responding, the net is asynchronous enough as it is: the History of Dumb posts includes such titles as "What time is it?" "The Space Shuttle blew up!" and "California just had an earthquake." See your local broadcast news. Attribution: (Those lines frequently beginning with ">") MINIMIZE. Especially: don't post "Me, too" posts after 100 lines of attribution. Remove especially long sigatures at the bottoms of posts. Use email. Show that you are intelligent and net savvy in your postings. Edit carefully. [If you feel that the ratio of inflammatory or relevant posts is too high for your tastes, go read the manual of your news reader in the section of kill files. This way, you can customize your news reader to not bother you with messages from certain people, or which contain particular keywords in their headers. This way, you can avoid all the headache associated with such posts - not a minor thing - nfotis ] ====================================================================== c. How does one receive soc.culture.greek without USENET access?? ================================================================= Send a mail with subject "help post" to soc-culture-greek-request@cs.wisc.edu or do a "finger scg@cs.wisc.edu" ====================================================================== 2. What's needed in order to have Greek characters in my computer? ================================================================== a. PCs ====== [ The following information applies for AT-like PCs. For PS/2s, things are somewhat different, but I don't know many details -- nfotis ] For english in GENERAL, you will have either a software or hardware solution: For Monochrome, Hercules, and CGA your only hope is a Greek Chip Character Generator. It is usually supplied by the Greek PC vendors. If you buy the PC elsewhere (i.e. in the US) and bring it to Greece, tough. For EGA/VGA, there are plenty of user-defined fonts around. In Greece, your vendor will typically supply with one, or there are free versions. All it really is is the software version of the Character Chip. In either case, the Greek Characters take over the high bytes (128+) of the extended ASCII set the PC uses and replace the funny symbols umlauts, funny puncuation, etc) with Greek letters. In the first case it is done in hardware, second in software. Then there is a TSR program loaded at boot time that switches (i.e. ALT-SHIFT toggles between the two. This program is also supplied by the vendor. A third SLOW case for CGA/Herc machines is to use SOFT fonts, i.e. characters done in graphics mode. Extremely slow but inexpensive. A good Shareware Greek word processor works that way. Details below. This way you get to type greek to programs like text editors. When the text is saved (extended or 8 bit text) you'll see the funny characters that Greek is represented by. Same deal with printers, i.e. the PRINTER character chip will have the extended ascii set to include Greek. So when you print a file using DOS print, it will come up OK. Alternatively, printers that handle soft (downloadable) fonts, can download the fonts and then you print as usual. A good word processor for Greek (and many other non english languages) is INTEXT12. It can be found at various US ftp sites (oak.oakland.edu under editors directory). Accepts the common denominator (herc/cga) and uses soft fonts. Works OK for things like letters etc though I would not try anything like a college thesis with it. Commercial systems: For more $$$, you can buy NOTA BENE (i believe) which has a very good Greek mode for $500 or so. Several small vendors advertise Greek WP systems typically in the back of, say, PC Magazine or Byte. Prices are in the $150-$500 range. Also, the WordPerfect distributor here has made a Greek version of the software and the manuals. PCwrite also does works well with Greek letters. b. PCs with MS Windows ====================== WinGreek (1.7 is the latest version): Greek-Hebrew Fonts/Accenter/Conv CCAT for Win3. It's shareware and includes: -Screen Fonts for Hercules, EGA, VGA & 8514 -Printer fonts for 9pin & 24pin Printers, HP LaserJets & Postscript. -Utilities for Entering Accents (European Languages & Greek) and Converting between File Formats (WinGreek <=CCAT). New in version 1.8: New Greek Font and New Versions of Utilities. New in version 1.7: Coptic / Greek / Hebrew TrueType Font for Windows 3.1 TrueType For All Printers Supported by Windows 3.1. author: Peter Gentry Several font vendors also supply their own fonts with ATM and TrueType. You can also use the SYMBOL fonts which looks kind of silly (i.e. troff) but works if everything else fails. With the advent of Windows 3.1, the existing problem of printing to IBM-speaking printers will be eliminated via the downloaded font system. (The printers here in general know only the old IBM-PC character set, while the MS Windows had ELOT-928 - you may guess the confusion that arose and the need for more filters ;-) ) úÿ From: Jeff Beneker ------------------------------------------ There's a CLASSICS mailing list, for discussing Greek Classics and Latin. From this list I got info about Greek fonts on PCs, etc. [To subscribe on the list, send an e-mail message to listserv@uwavm.u.washington.edu with the following line on the body of the message: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICS Your_Real_Name ] [ Be warned: the stuff *is* out of date! I got it last September... - nfotis ] >From: TSUPXH01@ASNTSU.ASN.NET For those using Windows 3.1, a Classical Greek font is in the works at Monotype -- about one month from publication. From what I'm told, it will be a PS font but not TrueType. I suggested to them that they create also a Latin font that would have macrons. I think thiskwould make a very marketable classical package. In the meantime, how do Windows users solve the macron problem? I'm using the circumflex vowels in the extended C as a sort of makeshift solution. Maybe a few phone calls to Monotype would encourage them to help us out. Call 1-800-MONOTYPE and express your ideas to sales manager Steve Kuhlman. >From: Oliver Phillips Yes, you can run Greek on a an IBM compatible provided it and its monitor have VGA capabilities, 386 (perhaps 286) or higher. I run Windows 3.1 (3.0 will do), Word for Windows (hereinafter WinWord). With the Pharos search program came packaged the WinGreek Greek and Hebrew fonts, with full diacriticals visible on the screen--only one Greek font, however, though suiting my needs perfectly. WinGreek will only work with WinWord though can be used independently of Pharos. Get WinGreek from Peter Gentry at 55 Ambercroft Blvd., Scarborough, Ontario, Canada M1W 2z6, peter@artsci.toronto.edu. $35.00 Yankee dollar, as I recall. Andrew Fountain distibutes it in the UK, but I don't have his address. Get Pharos 0.2 (bundled with WinGreek) by anonymous ftp from the University of California at Santa Barbara--but I don't have the Internet address. To get it by smail on disk send $15.00 to Dan Thibodeau Department of Classics Santa Barbara, CA 93106 805-893-3556 For ftp instructions contact him at 6500dan@ucsbuxa.bitnet or 6500dan@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu [ WinGreek is mentioned elsewhere ] c. Mac ====== Simple: Get the machine from Greek dealers! The MacOS is completely hellenized (menus, messages, etc.) and basic applications are also hellenized and available with Greek font support (eg. MS Word). In general, you press the left-clover and Space keys to toggle between Greek and English keyboard. The 'left-clover' key is known in the Mac community as 'Command' key. The trick should also work with the right Command-key on the Apple Extended Keyboard. What happens when you do this is that you toggle the 'Keyboard' cdev (control device) from english to the local language. This resides in the System Folder, and in theory you could rotate between more than two keyboard mappings--e.g., greek, english, german and spanish. With system 7 there is the inherent capability to include all available 'Keyboard' resources in a menu on the right side of the menu-bar of the Finder, so that one could change the current setting easily. This has not yet been fully implemented. If and when it does it will not affect the individual application resources, in other words applications that are not hellenized will not automatically become so. From what I know, the Greek Apple dealers use a special set of ROMs, soooo... they may put such a set on your machine, but not for free! d. Amiga ========= Amiga: there was a half-hearted attempt to implement Greek character sets in the upper 128 positions. I don't know the current status of affairs in this matter. [ A netter offered his additions : ] The Amiga always supported different fonts. I always write my greek letters in a symbol font. But there are programs that support Adobe fonts and import fonts from the MAC and IBM line of computers. On top of that it is very easy to edit your own font. Using most terminal programs is a question of selecting a menu entry and you can get a diffrent font display on screen. Amiga also supports LaTex, Postcript. Also on a final note the latest version of the operating system (2.1?) you can select the language you want and the Menu entries occur in the language you wish (Translated not just change of fonts), easy script files can be written and a click of a function key and you can swap between fonts. So in general all Word processors, text editors, in fact all software supports Greek .... e. Atari: ========= [ From: likos@clinet.fi (Johannis Likos) ] [ For further details about Greek on Atari or about 'Human Aided Machine Translation' (computerized translation of documents [ASCII text files] from/to Greek to/from other European languages), contact him at the address: Johannis Likos Rusthollarintie 13 F 46 FIN-00910 Helsinki Finland ] A. Keyboard Layout ------------------ GREEK20B.ACC Accessory made by Gizis & Statharas for all Ataris with TOS 1.4 and can be purchased from the 'Atari Club' in Athina/Pireas or from 'Soft Support' in Thessaloniki. This Accessory emulates somehow Greek typewriter by using SHIFT, ALTERNATE and CONTROL keys in various combinations in order to switch between Latin and Greek characters. Additionally accented (tonoumena) and/or umlauted (dialytika) small and capital characters are supported. It is not recommended for MultiTOS and/or Falcon030. Use only G+Plus as GDOS driver. FSWITCH 2.0 Accessory distributed by 'The ST Club' in UK is made for Ataris with TOS 1.4 and it supports even oriental Keyboards (writing from right to left). It is very useful for companies in Greece and Cyprus, which are making business with the Arab world in North Africa and in Middle East. The Greek keyboard file for FSWITCH 2.0 you can get either from me (likos@clinet.fi) or you edit it yourself. By using key combinations (ALT, SHIFT, etc.) can be switched between Greek, Latin and Arab (also Persian and Hebrew). It is not recommended for MultiTOS and/or Falcon030. HARLEKIN 3.0 Accessory distributed by 'Maxon GmbH' in Germany and the latest release is made for all TOS versions. So far it uses only UNSHIFTED, SHIFTED and CAPS LOCK and therefore it doesn't conflict with MultiTOS and/or AES 4.0 and many various keyboard modules can be re-loaded. The Greek keyboard module for HARLEKIN 3.0 you can get either from me (likos@clinet.fi) or you edit it yourself. B. Screen Fonts --------------- GREEK20B.ACC Accessory made by Gizis & Statharas for all Ataris with TOS 1.4 and can be purchased from the 'Atari Club' in Athina/Pireas or from 'Soft Support' in Thessaloniki. This Accessory includes 6x6 icon fonts 8x8 screen fonts for ST colour (color) resolutions and 8x16 screen fonts for ST monochrome resolution with 8-bit Greek IBM characters. It is not recommended for MultiTOS and/or Falcon030. Use only G+Plus as GDOS driver. FSWITCH 2.0 Accessory distributed by 'The ST Club' in UK is made for Ataris with TOS 1.4 preferrably in monochrome mode. The Greek screen font files for FSWITCH 2.0 you can get either from me (likos@clinet.fi) or you edit them yourself. It is not recommended for MultiTOS and/or Falcon030. HARLEKIN 3.0 Accessory distributed by 'Maxon GmbH' in Germany and the latest release is made for all TOS versions. The Greek screen fonts module for HARLEKIN 3.0 you can get either from me (likos@clinet.fi) or you edit it yourself. MultiTOS 1.0 (MiNT & Multitasking AES 4.x) can use alternative Greek screen fonts in GDOS format by defining the AE_FONTID in the GEM.CNF file. SIGNUM 3.0 Application, distributed by 'Application Systems Heidelberg GmbH' in Germany contains an application-specific Classic Greek (APXAIA) font set for Theology students. CALAMUS N/S/SL Greek (PKS) Editor window (8x16 pixel). For further details, please, contact me (likos@clinet.fi). C. Printer Fonts (HP-DeskJet/LaserJet/PaintJet, SLM-406/605/804) ---------------- Diablo630 bitmapped GDOS fonts for Greek 8-bit ASCII text only for Atari laser printers with DMA port, such as SLM804. FontGDOS bitmapped GDOS fonts for Greek GEM-Metafile output. G+Plus is the only FontGDOS compatible driver, which works propperly with GREEK20B.ACC, because FontGDOS, SpeedoGDOS or AMCGDOS with GREEK20B.ACC will cause boot problems. SIGNUM 3.0 Application, distributed by 'Application Systems Heidelberg GmbH' in Germany, contains an application-specific Classic Greek (polytonic) font upto 300/360 dpi in a special font library collection (maybe PD or shareware?!). CALAMUS N/S/SL has more than five application-specific Greek (monotonic) font families with upto 2540 dpi output resolution on phototypesetters (Linotronic, etc.). I have some self-made, if you need then contact me (likos@clinet.fi). PageStream 2.2 uses Adobe Type 1 font technology and all you need are the AFM and BFM files for the 7-bit Symbol font set with math symbols and Greek characters in Times/Roman style. SpeedoGDOS uses Bitstream FaceLift font technology and all you need is the SPD file for the 7-bit Symbol font set with math symbols and Greek characters in Swiss/Helvetica style. It is so far the best Scalable Font Technology on Atari comparable to TrueType on Windows. Any text size in a GEM-Metafile can be displayed on screen or printed on paper. MultiTeX 5.1 on Atari is using only the standard Greek characters as math symbols but not as plain text. The problem of accents, spirits, hyphenation and other Greek language-specific topics are still unsolved. So, if someone has any solution for modern Greek (monotonic) or even ancient Greek (polytonic) on other platforms, please, úÿ contact me (likos@clinet.fi), to find out how much work is to be done for porting it to Atari's TeX environment. D. Font Editors --------------- FontKitPlus 3.4 distributed by 'The ST Club' in UK, offers the possibility to edit screen fonts and printer fonts. It contains many features, such as re-scaling of bitmapped fonts for other output devices. The resulting screen fonts can be used either with FSWITCH or with MultiTOS or with other GDOS conform applications. METAFONT for Atari's TeX (MultiTeX 5.1) SIGNUM 3.0 Application, distributed by 'Application Systems Heidelberg GmbH' in Germany, contains an application-specific font editor in order to design your own bitmapped font style for screen and printer devices. DMC TypeArt/FontEdit and Didot Accessory for creating application-specific scalable fonts for CALAMUS N/S/SL. [ Attention: Some of the above mentioned products concerning Greek and Atari are either commercial or authorware or shareware or public domain or protected by other copyright or copyleft agreements. ] f. Other ======== [ Other machines?? Anyone who knows more here?? -- nfotis ] ====================================================================== 3. Internet/BITNET/UUCP University sites in Greece? =================================================== Note: If you don't know how to access eg. a machine in BITNET while you're on the InterNet, call your sysadmins for help. I summarize here the most aften asked question: Q: I want to contact a person in , eg. GRPATVX1 in BITNET. How do I send mail to user@GRPATVX1 ? A: Send the mail via a BITNET-InterNet gateway site, eg. via rice.edu as: user%GRPATVX1.BITNET@rice.edu Another good guess is a BITNET site close to the national BITNET gateway, eg. user%GRPATVX1.BITNET@ariadne.csi.forth.gr (via the Greek Inet gateway) Similarly for registered Greek UUCP sites, use: user%site.uucp@ariadne.csi.forth.gr I want to stress that this is a usual *kludge* (ie. de facto usage). Don't expect a BITNET site to use exactly these conventions. Use FAX/Phone to make an initial contact with the sysadmins or the person you want to contact. a. InterNet sites ================= Use your nameservers to find actual IP numbers! Also note that atlas.cti.gr (150.140.2.3) is the gateway to Patras Univ. From: petrides@ecst.csuchico.edu (Georgios Petrides) -------------------------------- Officially registered Second Level domains under gr Academic domains: ---------------- Univ. of Thessaloniki auth.gr 345600 IN NS aliakmon.cperi.forth.gr Democretion University of Thrace duth.gr 345600 IN NS minos.cc.uch.gr National Technical Univ. of Athens ntua.gr 86400 IN NS theseas.ntua.gr Univ. of Crete uch.gr 345600 IN NS cyprus.csd.uch.gr ucr.gr 345600 IN NS minos.cc.uch.gr Technica Ekpedeutika Idrymata tei.gr 172800 IN NS ariadne.csi.forth.gr Technical Univ of Chania tuc.gr 86400 IN NS omalos.ced.tuc.gr Research Center/ Technology Parks' domains: ------------------------------------------ forth.gr 345600 IN NS terpsi.csi.forth.gr techpath.gr 172800 IN NS aliakmon.cperi.forth.gr Network organization domains: ----------------------------- ariadne-t.gr 172800 IN NS isosun.ariadne-t.gr y-net.gr 172800 IN NS ariadne.csi.forth.gr Company networks: ---------------- ambit.gr 172800 IN NS ariadne.csi.forth.gr eetaa.gr 86400 IN PTR 0.177.107.192.in-addr.arpa elsypnet.gr 172800 IN NS ariadne.csi.forth.gr intracom.gr 172800 IN NS ariadne.csi.forth.gr intranet.gr 86400 IN NS ariadne.csi.forth.GR knossos.gr 172800 IN NS ariadne.csi.forth.gr Amateur networks: ---------------- fdnet.gr 172800 IN NS ariadne.csi.forth.gr fidonet.gr 172800 IN NS ariadne.csi.forth.gr intlnet.gr 172800 IN NS ariadne.csi.forth.gr University of Cyprus -------------------- user@jupiter.cca.ucy.cy Greek Anonymous FTP site ------------------------ ftp ariadne.csi.forth.gr login : anonymous passwd: e-mail address Info from Stelios Sartzetakis (stelios@ariadne.csi.forth.gr>: >I'm the network manager of the Internet gateway to Greece >here in Heraklio-Crete at FORTH (see documentation at anon >ftp ariadne.csi.forth.gr under ~ftp/FORTH/ICS/PROFILE) > >The Internet connected sites in Greece is mainly academic >and R&D departments of some companies. > >There is a fidonet gateway machine in Thessaloniki, which is >connected to us (more info dimitris@cperi.forth.gr) > >more info from the managers of the various domains under .gr >(postmaster@ntua.gr for example for the National Technical >Univ of Athens etc.) There's also an X.25 network called network ARIADNE. The network is based at NRC Demokritos, and they are gatewayed to the InterNet via the machine leon.nrcps.ariadne-t.gr [143.233.2.1]. NTUA has also a connection to this network via PADs. In the machine isosun.nrcps.ariadne-t.gr [143.233.1.1] there's also an account "pythia" (no passwd), which runs a BBS-like information system about the ARIADNE network. b. BITNET/EARN sites ==================== I have found an article from schmuck@rhrk.uni-kl.de (Karl Schmuck [Bib]) last November, which described the results of a search in the bitearn-database at listserv@dearn.bitnet. I have edited it somewhat, but I left (I hope) all the necessary information inside. Note that some of these machines have also InterNet addresses (at least for mail) /* here's his query */ > sel * in bitearn where country contains gr --> Database BITEARN, 12 hits. Node: ARIADNE Internet: ariadne.csi.forth.gr Nodedesc: FORTH-Computer Science Institute P_dakosmid: Damianos Kosmidis;Damian@ariadne;+30 81 229302,229368 P_dkosmidi: Damianos Kosmidis;Damian@ariadne;+30 81 221171,229368 P_ssartzet: Stelios Sartzetakis;STELIOS@ARIADNE;+30 81 229302,221171 Netop: p_dakosmid Useradm: p_ssartzet Phone: +30 81 229302 Fax: +30 81 229342 Node: GRATHDEM A_member: Computer Center;153 10 Agia Paraskeuei Attikis;Athens Greece Admin: p_akostopo Dir: p_aarvilia Nodedesc: EKEFE-Demokritos P_aarvilia: ALEXIS ARVILIAS;AMBER@GRATHDEM P_akostopo: A. Kostopoulos;KOSTOP@GRATHDEM Node: GRATHUN1 A_member: University of Athens,;Computer Center, Building T.Y.P.A;University Campus;Ilissia, Athens, Greece Admin: p_sgrathun Dir: p_svanakar Nodedesc: University of Athens P_sgrathun: STAVROS GRATHUN1;STAVROS@GRATHUN1;+30 1 7226895 P_svanakar: Stavros Vanakaris;STAVROS@GRATHUN1;+30 1 7248470 P_00000001: STAVROS;STAVROS@GRATHUN1 P_00000004: INSTALL;INSTALL@GRATHUN1 Netop: p_00000004 Node: GRCRUN11 Nodedesc: University of Crete, Heraklion, Crete, Greece P_operator: Operator;OPERATOR@GRCRUN11;+30 81 232156 ext.26 P_ptzortza: P. Tzortzakis;POSTMAST@GRCRUN11;+30 81 232357 P_00000001: POSTMAST;POSTMAST@GRCRUN11 Netop: p_operator Useradm: p_ptzortza Node: GRCRVAX1 A_member: University of Crete;Ampelokipi;Heraklion, Crete;Greece Admin: p_jfragiad Dir: p_jfragiad Nodedesc: University of Crete, Heraklion, Crete, Greece P_jfragiad: J. Fragiadakis;JFRAGIAD@GRCRVAX1;+30 81 232357 Netop: p_operator Internet: minos.cc.uch.gr Node: GREARN A_member: Research Center of Crete;P.O. Box 527;Heraklion, Crete;Greece Admin: p_ptzortza Dir: p_sorphano Internet: grearn.csi.forth.gr Nodedesc: Foundation of Research and Technology Hellas P_operator: Operator;OPERATOR@GREARN;+30 81 232156 ext.26 P_ptzortza: P. Tzortzakis;PANTELIS@GREARN;+30 81 232357 P_sorphano: S. Orphanoudakis;ORPHICS@GREARN;+30 81 210057 P_00000001: POSTMAST;POSTMAST@GREARN Netop: p_operator Node: GRGBOX Internet: grgbox.csi.forth.gr Nodedesc: FORTH-Computer Science Institute P_00000001: Pantelis Tzortzakis pantelis;Pantelis Tzortzakis pantelis@grearn.bitnet P_00000002: Pantelis Tzortzakis Pantelis;Pantelis Tzortzakis Pantelis@Grearn.bitnet +30 81 232357 Techinfo: p_00000001 Useradm: p_00000001 p_00000002 Phone: +30 81 232357 Fax: +30 81 239735 Node: GRIMBB Nodedesc: Institute of Molecular Biology and Biotechnology P_00000001: SYSTEM;SYSTEM@GRIMBB Useradm: p_00000001 Internet: Nefelh.cc.uch.gr Node: GRIOANUN A_member: University Campus;Dourouti;GR 45110 Ioannina; GREECE Admin: p_paslanis Dir: p_sdanielo úÿ Member: UNiversity of Ioannina P_paslanis: Panos J. Aslanis;UOIC02@GRIOANUN;30-651-91298 P_sdanielo: Stylianos Danielopoulos;E270A01@GRIOANUN;30-651-91807 P_00000003: CDCE;CDCE@GRIOANUN Netop: p_00000003 Node: GRPATEI Nodedesc: Technological Institute of Patra Phone: 30 61 347778 P_1: Marios Xatziprokopiou;manager@grpatei;+30 61 347778 Site: Technological Education Institute of Patra A_site: TEI Patras;Koukouli Patra;Greece Dir: P_1 Admin: P_1 Techinfo: P_1 Useradm: P_2 P_2: ;postmast@grpatei P_mxatzipr: Marios Xatziprokopiou;manager@grpatei;+30 61 347778 P_mzatzipr: Marios Xatziprokopiou;manager@grpatei;+30 61 347778 P_postmast: ;postmast@grpatei Node: GRPATVX1 A_member: P.O. BOX 1122, 26110 Patras, Greece Admin: p_kkaranas Dir: p_thadzila Member: University of Patras Nodedesc: Computer Technology Institute, Univ. of Patras, GREECE P_kkaranas: Kostas Karanasios;NETMGR@GRPATVX1;+30 61 993176 P_ngrpatvx: NETMGR GRPATVX1;NETMGR@GRPATVX1;+30 61 993176 P_thadzila: Prof. Thanasis Hadzilacos;THH@GRPATVX1;+30 61 993176 Netop: p_ngrpatvx Node: GRTHEUN1 Internet: ossa.ccf.auth.gr (155.207.1.2) A_member: Aristotelion University;Computer Center;Thessaloniki Greece Admin: p_mgrtheun Dir: p_pargyrak Nodedesc: University of Thessaloniki P_mgrtheun: MAINT GRTHEUN1;MAINT@GRTHEUN1;+30 31 992843 P_pargyrak: Panos Argyrakis;CACZ11@GRTHEUN1 P_00000003: OPERATOR;OPERATOR@GRTHEUN1 Netop: p_00000003 c. UUCP sites ============= [ I found a map of UUCP sites in Greece in rtfm.mit.edu: /pub/usenet/comp.mail.maps. Here follows an edited listing: (I removed obviously out of date entries, because the last update was at 19 Feb '91 -- you can route mail to any of these sites through ariadne) ] ariadne: (IP gateway also): ariadne.uucp = ARIADNE.BITNET Check above for details about ariadne (in the IP nodes list). aello: Dimitris Hatzopoulos, postmaster@aello.uucp, +30 31 269346, 121 Tsimiski Street, GR-546 21 Thessaloniki, Greece FidoNet nodes 2:410/1 2:410/0 2:41/0 - Network Host system for Greece. This is a FidoNet <-> UUCP/Internet gateway site serving the FidoNet nodes of Greece. (FidoNet Region 41 - Network 410) algo: Algosystems sa Dimitris Verikios, veri@algo.uucp, +30 1 9330551, 9345858, x9352873, Sygrou 183, Athens, Greece 17121. Systems Integrators specialized in UNIX and Networks SCO, EXCELAN, CABLETRON, DYNATECH and TATUNG distributor. cmsu: National Technical University of Athens George Vlontakis, george@cmsu.uucp, +30 1 7757401, Pathsivn 42, Athens, GREECE ctc: Computer Technologies Company (ctc) Sakis Psonis, Melanippi Chryssoulaki, postmaster@ctc.uucp, +30 1 6550574, x6570676, 452, Mesogion Avenue, 153 42 - Athens, GREECE dias: Computer Technology Institute (cti) Kostas Karanasios, netmgr@ermhs.uucp, +30 61 993176, x991909, P.O. Box 1122, 261 10 Patras, Greece dias.uucp == GRPATVX1.BITNET; CTI's Network Mail Gateway to EARN Connected via GREARN; Help : postmaster@cti.gr eetaa: Hellenic Agency for Development & Local Government sa postmaster@athina.uucp, +30 1 3646937, Solonos 10, 10672, Athens, Greece elsyp: Hellenic Information Systems sa Savvidis S. Dimitrios, Matzarakis Dimitrios, postmaster@elsyp.uucp, +30 1 6820020, 6820017, x6811555, Kifisias 16, Marousi, Athens 151 25, Greece epstech: Epsion Software Akis Fytas, akis@epstech.uucp, +30 1 9421707, 9427719, 377 Syngrou Avenue, P. Faliro, GR-17564, Athens, Greece Software House specialized in XENIX/UNIX applications ermhs: Computer Technology Institute (cti) (read dias' entry above) CTI's Network Mail Gateway to EUnet; Help : postmaster@cti.gr evelyn: BetaTech Engineering Associates Sotiris Vassilopoulos, postmaster@evelyn.uucp, +30 1 9912570, x9953378, Al. Ikonomou 4, 167 77 - Helleniko, Greece gget: General Secretariat of Research & Technology Dimitrios Papaioannou, Marinos Skolarikos, dpap@mrtath.uucp, msko@mrtath.uucp [ mrtath does not exist anymore ] +30 1 7714162, 14-18 Mesogeion Avenue, Athens 115 10, GREECE intra: Intrasoft sa, Res & Dev Department Vassilis Kolias, vassilis@intra.uucp, +30 1 7751158, 7701692(int.50), x7782444, 2 Messogion Str., Athens Tower, 11527 Athens, Greece sirius: Technical University of Crete, Lab of Dynamic Systems and Simulation Vangelis Voudourakis, vangelis@mira.uucp, +30 821 20898, Ag. Markou st., Chania, Crete, Greece 73132 statik: Ntua, Institute of Structural Analysis and Aseismic Research Vlasis Koumousis, Panos Georgiou, postmaster@statik.uucp, +30 1 7784603, x7784603, Heroon Polytecneiou, Zografou, Athens, 157 73, GREECE sungr: Atko sa Tasos Pikounis, Kostas Matrozos, tpik@sungr.uucp, ksyr@sungr.uucp, +30 1 7785950, 7784967, x7798849, 74 Mesogeion Ave., Athens 153 42, GREECE vergina: Department of Electrical Engineering, University of Thessaloniki Dimitris Mitrakos, Michael Strintzis, postmaster@vergina.UUCP, +30 31 219784 219783, Thessaloniki 54006, Greece Greek Academic Research Network ARIADNEt address (X.25) 1310010003 omalos: Technical University of Crete, Chania Manolis Fragonikolakis, fm@omalos.uucp, +30 821 64846, Ag. Markou st., Chania, Crete, Greece 73132 xanthi: Democritus University of Thrace Christos Chamzas, chamzas@xanthi.uucp, +30 541 26478, Xanthi, Greece GR 67100 cteam: COMPTUTER TEAM sa VALI LALIOTI, vali@cteam.uucp, +30 31 548012, 535312, 546547, FAX 544844 Karatasou 7, THessaloniki, Greece 546 26 Systems Integrators specialized in AIX and Networks (NOVELL) Development of Software aplications in AIX, DOS, NOVELL IBM PS/2, NOVELL, RISC 6000, INTERMEC distributor lesbos: Panayiotis Papachiou, pnp@lesbos.uucp postmaster@lesbos.uucp, +30 251 26981 G. Kortesi 73, Kallithea, Mytilene, Greece 81100 ach: Apple Center Heraklio Maria Troullinou, postmaster@ach.uucp, +30 81 242080, Crysostomou 26, Heraklion, Crete, Greece 71110 ambit: Ambit Ltd John Kozatsas, postmaster@ambit.uucp, +30 1 9950152 5, Polemistwn str. GR-164 52 Argyroupolis, Athens d. Internet providers ===================== [ Only one at this point. I hope to see more! ] There's an X.25 network called network ARIADNE. The network is based at NRC Demokritos, and they are gatewayed to the InterNet via the machine leon.nrcps.ariadne-t.gr [143.233.2.1]. In the machine isosun.nrcps.ariadne-t.gr [143.233.1.1] there's also an account "pythia" (no passwd), which runs a BBS-like information system about the ARIADNE network. The ariadne-t.gr people run a 12-line dial-up service also, which provides e-mail and ftp/telnet (USENET planned in the future). Here are the data: (Current fee is 5,900 Drs. / 3 months, last I heard, and they charge for disk space above 500Kbytes - up to 2 MBytes quota is available ) CONTACTS WITH ARIADNE'S ADMINISTRATION ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Telephone : +30 1 6515224 +30 1 6513392 +30 1 6536351 Fax : +30 1 6532910 Address : N.R.C.P.S. Demokritos Ag.Paraskevi (ARIADNE Network) 15310 Athens Greece E-mail : * BITNET : POSTMAST@GRATHDEM , AMBER@GRATHDEM * INTERNET : postmaster@isosun.ariadne-t.gr * X.400 : S=postmaster;OU=isosun;O=ariadne-t;PRMD=ariadne-t;C=gr;^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ * Dr. A.Arvillias (Network Administrator) --------------------------------------- Telephone : +30 1 6515224 Fax : +30 1 6532175 E-mail (Internet) : arvilias@isosun.ariadne-t.gr * Dr. G.Korovesis (Technical Net. Administrator) ---------------------------------------------- Telephone : +30 1 6513392 Fax : +30 1 6532175 E-mail (Internet) : ycor@isosun.ariadne-t.gr (X.400) : S=corovesis;OU=isosun;O=ariadne-t;PRMD=ariadne-t;C=gr * P.Telonis (Internet Support) ----------------------------- Telephone : +30 1 6513392 E-mail (Internet) : ttel@leon.nrcps.ariadne-t.gr * V.Georgiou (User Support) ------------------------- Telephone : +30 1 6513392 E-mail (Internet) : vgeor@isosun.ariadne-t.gr * T.Drigas (Network Operational Manager) -------------------------------------- Telephone : +30 1 6536351 E-mail (Internet) : drigas@isosun.ariadne-t.gr DATABASE IXI ADDRESS -------- ----------- ECHO 2043703004 EUROCOM 204372500002 ====================================================================== úÿ 4. What standards exist for inclusion of Greek characters into ASCII text? ========================================================================== NOTE: The greek typewriter character set is (assuming you follow the Greek alphabet): a b g d e z h u i k l m n j o p r s t y f x c v and `w' (lower-case only) is final sigma. Also there are accents and diaeresis marks in Greek. Your keyboard driver should provide for those special characters. [I don't know if it's a standard (I think so, I never saw a mention)] For 7-bit transmission: there's an ELOT standard, but we don't bother with it, since we use always 8-bit ASCII (at least between us). For 8-bit characters, there are various standards: [ "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from..", Andrew Tanenmbaum >:-> ] ELOT-928 -------- It was assigned an ISO number(ISO8859-7), so its an international and official standard. Here in NTUA, we use it in our Unix machines (because it didn't interfere with 'vi' metacharacters, as I was told ;-) ) Notice that this standard concerns ONLY the storage of 8-bit text files, ie. it doesn't bother with keyboard mapping, etc. Besides the character encodings, it provides also an escape sequence when you're switching to/from it. IBM 437 ------- The de-facto standard: IBM PC character set [ 437 ]. The dealers settled early enough on a standard 8-bit ASCII set for both Greek and English letters. Unfortunately, they didn't standardize on the combination of keys that was necessary to activate the TSR programs, etc. It's a simple matter to make a program that converts between the ELOT-928 and this format and vice versa (in fact, we use such a program to transfer Greek files between UNIX and PCs). IBM PS/2 [ Which codepage??] -------- When IBM introduced PS/2s, there was a provision for Greek letters in their character sets. Unfortunately, in their infinite wisdom, they decided to make it incompatible with the existing standards, either the de-facto IBM or the ELOT-928. So the term IBM-compatible took a new meaning (sarcasm indended). In any case, I suppose there are converters between these character sets. Mac: ---- YAS (Yet Another Standard). The programmer who wants to use Greek letters in his program, faces a strange character set (as told by others). As a user, because you're buying from one source, there's no big trouble. There's at least one converter between all these formats (Chameleon), but I don't have recent news here. Note: Apple had 2 different versions of the Greek alphabet implemented, so be sure to get the latest ROM revisions if you want to run a hellenized application. Atari: ------ [ From: likos@clinet.fi (Johannis Likos) ] Some solutions described above are either Greek IBM graphic character set compatible or YAUS (Yet Another Undocumented Standard). For this matter I have programmed my own conversion tools for known chaotic standards. Is anyone working on the Greek Unicode (2-Byte Character Code)? [ Others?? ] ====================================================================== 5. How do I write greek with troff/TeX/WP/... ?? ================================================ a. TeX/LaTeX ============ From: Dimitrios FILIPPOU TYPESETTING GREEK DOCUMENTS BY TeX/LaTeX: ========================================= The following paragraphs contain some information of how to typeset Greek with TeX (and the most favourite macro package: LaTeX). The information which is presented here is by-no-means complete. It is also possible that some TeX-nicians or TeX-istorians will find errors. In any case, the following text provides some information on (i) complete Greek TeX/LaTeX packages, (ii) Greek fonts for TeX (this is mainly for the few ones who like to play with METAFONT), and (iii) where one may seek help in case he has problems to typeset Greek with TeX (or LaTeX). (1) "FREE" GREEK TeX PACKAGES: There are two "free" ("free" means available by anonymous "ftp") TeX packages for typesetting Greek by TeX/LaTeX. These are: (i) Yiannis Moschovakis' (UCLA, Los Angeles, USA) "greektex" (ver. 2.0?), and (ii) Kostis Dryllerakis' (Imperial College, London, UK) "GreekTeX" (ver. 3.1). [The names of these packages are identical. We play with small and capital letters -- "greektex" vs. "GreekTeX" -- in order to distinguish the one from the other.] Both these packages include a number of 8-bit fonts (regular -- i.e., the Greek equivalent of "roman" --, slanted, typewriter, etc.) and macros for typesetting Greek with either plain TeX or LaTeX. Being accompanied by "filters" for character translation, they can be used under UNIX or DOS to typeset modern/ancient, uni-/multi-accent Greek. However, each of these packages was originally created under different oper. system and hence, Moschovakis' package is more friendly to use on a DOS machine (it allows the user to type in Greek or Latin directly), while Dryllerakis' package is more convenient for UNIX running machines (at some UNIX running machines you may not be able to edit a document with Greek characters encoded at ASCII > 127). Perhaps, Dryllerakis' "GreekTeX" would be also the best choice for someone who wants to typeset Greek text by TeX on a Mac machine. Moschovakis' fonts include the basic Latin characters at their original posistions (ASCII below 127). Contrary to this, Dryllerakis' fonts do not include any Latin characters, but only Greek ones. For that reason, people who want to avoid duplicating the font files in their disks, they should go for Dryllerakis' package. We would recommend Moschovakis' package to those who want to typeset entirely (or almost entirely) Greek texts by TeX on their DOS machine. Dryllerakis' package seems to be the best choice for those who want to typeset Latin texts with not much of Greek (editing something for Greek output may be a nightmare with Dryllerakis' "GreekTeX", unless you can make use of "filters"). It is also possible that Dryllerakis' package is more compatible with the New Font Selection Scheme (NFSS), the soon(?)-to-come-out LaTeX ver. 3.0 and the new generation of DC fonts (which have already started replacing the CM fonts of D. Knuth in European sites). [ Added by Kostas Dryllerakis: ] In order to accomodate all greek accents, breathings, letters and their combinations a full 256 greek font is needed. The use of filters to transform from one character set to the other helps keep the tex fonts away from any machibe dependency. With the correct filter you can use it on any font encoding scheme and therefore on any machine without changing the fonts themselves. For the GreekTeX package an experimental version that works under NFSS does exist, but I will wait until the release of the new LaTeX in order to release it. Moschovakis' "greektex" is available by "ftp" from: math.ucla.edu (128.97.4.254); dir: pub/moschovakis/greektex ftp.uni-stuttgart.de (129.69.1.12); dir: soft/tex/languages/greek/moschovakis TeX.ac.uk (134.151.40.18); dir: TEX-ARCHIVE.LANGS.GREEK.MOSCHOVAKIS ATTENTION: some *.EXE, or *.COM files have not been archived at this site! and Dryllerakis' "GreekTeX" is available by "ftp" from: laotzu.doc.ic.ac.uk (146.169.2.9); dir: public/tex ftp.tex.ac.uk (134.151.44.19); dir: pub/archive/fonts/greek/kd sol.cs.ruu.nl (131.211.80.17); dir: pub/TEX/FONTS file: kdgreek3.1.tar.Z (No North American "ftp" site has been found to have archived this package.) It's also certain that, at the University of Patras and the University of Crete in Greece, there have been created and installed some other Greek TeX packages. Unfortunately, these "very Greek" TeX packages can not be traced as they do not exist at any "ftp" site. (2) "FREE" GREEK FONTS FOR TeX: The first family of Greek fonts for TeX was created sometime in the mid-80s (when TeX's version was still below 3.0) by Sylvio Levy (Princeton University, New Jersey, USA). This was a 7-bit font family of the Didot kind (Didot is a famous Parisian firm of printers which developed originally the Greek regular font used today extensively by Greek printers) and included "regular" (that is the Didot equivalent of the roman type for Latin alphabets; in Greek they are known as "apla"), slanted, bold, and typewriter fonts. The METAFONT source code of these fonts is still available by "ftp" from princeton.edu (128.112.128.1); dir: pub ymir.claremont.edu (134.173.4.23); dir: TEX.BABEL.GREEK.LEVY (don't rush to grab them though -- read below!) Yannis Haralambous (Villeneuve d'Ascq, France) subsequently created his own Didot family of Greek fonts which looks the same as Levy's one, but uses an 8-bit coding scheme. It contains five typefaces: Didot "regular", slanted, bold, typewriter, "italics" (the "italics" are kind of pseudo-italics based on the math Greek character set of the TeX Computer Modern) and small-caps. Within the small-caps of Haralambous, you will find some extra characters such as digamma, sampi, qoppa, etc., which are useful in writting Greek numerals. The METAFONT sources are available by "ftp" from ymir.claremont.edu (134.173.4.23); dir: TEX.BABEL.GREEK.YANNIS (again: don't rush to grab them -- read below!) In the time between Levy's and Haralambous' works, Brian Hamilton Kelly (Royal Military College of Science, Swindon, UK) also presented a family of Greek fonts. Apparently these fonts ("roman", "italic", bold and typewriter) were created out of the Greek characters of TeX's Computer Modern math fonts. As their author says, these fonts won't work for multi-accent modern/ancient Greek; they'll do the job only for the uni-accent modern Greek. In any case, their METAFONT sources are available by "ftp" from ymir.claremont.edu (134.173.4.23); dir: TEX.BABEL.GREEK.HAMILTON_KELLY Yiannis Moschovakis and Kostis Dryllerakis picked up the fonts and the "kind-of-primitive" TeX macros of Levy and Haralambous and created their Greek TeX packages. In fact, Moschovakis in his latest version of "greektex" has included Greek sans-serif fonts. Moreover, Moschovakis has created his own "experimental italics" (kind of úÿ "more-slanted-than-slanted" letters) which are quite different from the ones included in Dryllerakis' "GreekTeX" (Dryllerakis' italics are the same as Haralambous' ones). FOR THOSE WHO HAVE ALREADY PICKED UP, OR THEY ARE GOING TO PICK UP ONE OF THESE TWO GREEK TeX PACKAGES, THERE'S NO NEED TO BOTHER WITH THE ORIGINAL FONTS OF LEVY, HARALAMBOUS OR HAMILTON KELLY. (3) OTHER COMMERCIAL GREEK FONTS FOR TeX: SCHOLAR TeX (tm) [registered trademark of Yannis Haralambous] includes fonts for modern Greek, ancient classical Greek, ancient epigraphical Greek and ("in the near future", according to the author) Byzantine Greek. It also includes fonts for a number of other non-Latin alphabets: Arabic, old Turkish, Persian, Urdu, Malay, Armenian, etc. Its price is: US$200 for individuals; US$100 additional for METAFONT (MF) sources; and US$500 for institutions (includes MF sources). For orders or more information, you can contact: Yannis Haralambous 101/11 rue Breughel, 59650 Villeneuve d'Ascq, France e-mail: yannis@gat.citilille.fr fax: +33 20.91.05.64 (You must specify to the author of SCHOLAR TeX, what is the oper. system where you intend to use his product.) Finally, C. Mylonas and R. Whitney have created Greek fonts for TeX of the Times-Elsevier style, which is very different to the Didot style. Their work, which has been published in the TUGboat (vol. 13, no. 1, pp. 39-49), looks as being the most complete one ever done on Greek characters (360 characters in total!) Nonetheless, these fonts are not (yet?) available for distribution or sale. (4) CONTACTING THE GREEK TeX COMMUNITY: Most of the fonts, macros, and packages that were described in the previous paragraphs have been created by people who have showed much enthusiasm on typesetting Greek by TeX, but without any intention of making money out of this story. Their work is available to public for free, but it can not be guaranteed that it is error-free or that everything will be OK under any "TeX-ing circumstances". If you are facing problems with using/typesetting Greek with TeX, or if you have new ideas about this subject, you may join the ELLHNIKA list. To do this, just send an e-mail message to LISTSERV@DHDURZ1.BITNET This message must contain only one line in its body: SUBSCRIBE ELLHNIKA The list has currently about 75 subscribers with Yannis Haralambous being the list owner. Once you are a subscriber to this list, you may send your questions/problems/ideas to ELLHNIKA@DHDURZ1.BITNET Ultimately, you may also post your problem/request/whatever to the relevant newsgroup of USENET, namely "comp.text.tex". NOTE: A slightly bigger version of the above document can be found at "ftp.tex.ac.uk" (134.151.44.19) at the directory: "help/greek.faq". ------------------- Posted for 1st time: Feb. 6, 1993 Revised (abridged): May 2, 1993 Revised (abridged): May 8, 1993 b. Other typesetting systems ============================ If you don't have any way to find Greek fonts, use the Symbol font. It works, albeit as a last resort. Troff: We have a set of plain Greek (ie. no italics, no boldfaces, etc.) To be more specific, a program here reads ELOT-928 text, and, when it encounters a Greek character, it spits out a set of Troff commands. Obviously, it's a hack, but It works. I would like to see a more general solution, though. NOTE: There's an effort here to make a better (and documented) solution for Unix and X11 or vt220's. You'll read an announcement when its in a distributable state. WordPerfect: Even before there existed a Greek dealer, WP had support for Greek letters in its 3-byte format. I don't know more details, but you'll get best results if you get one of these Word Processing packages from Greece. ====================================================================== 6. Greek fonts into X Windows ============================== From: phdye+@cs.cmu.edu (Philip Dye) Newsgroups: comp.graphics,brown.graphics Subject: Re: Is there a way to get Greek fonts into ``idraw''? --- >Does anyone know how Greek characters can be brought into idraw? >I am trying to draw figures for a paper and am frustrated by >the lack of support for using Greek letters in the figures in >the program idraw. > -Alan Arehart > aba@lems.brown.edu Idraw (like all x applications) uses the 'X Logical Font Description' for specification of screen fonts. Using this specification one includes enough information for the X server to locate a font. To get a list of the available fonts from a given server use the 'xlsfont' command. So to determine a specification for the Adobe Symbol one might use the following: % xlsfonts | grep -i symbol -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--10-100-75-75-p-61-adobe-fontspecific -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--11-80-100-100-p-61-adobe-fontspecific -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-p-74-adobe-fontspecific -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--14-100-100-100-p-85-adobe-fontspecific -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--14-140-75-75-p-85-adobe-fontspecific -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--17-120-100-100-p-95-adobe-fontspecific -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--18-180-75-75-p-107-adobe-fontspecific -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--20-140-100-100-p-107-adobe-fontspecific -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--24-240-75-75-p-142-adobe-fontspecific -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--25-180-100-100-p-142-adobe-fontspecific -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--34-240-100-100-p-191-adobe-fontspecific -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--8-80-75-75-p-51-adobe-fontspecific Each of the above specifies a specific X11 screen font. As much of the information is common, a simpler specification will still result in precise match. For example, '*-symbol-medium-*-240-*' uniquely identifies a font. If the given pattern does not uniquely identify a font, the first available font, as listed by the xlsfonts program, is used. In addition, idraw requires that one specify a postscript font and point size to associate with the screen font. Adding the following to your X11 defaults (or resources) will enable for symbol font items in idraw. idraw*font12: *-symbol-medium-r-*-100-* Symbol 10 idraw*font13: *-symbol-medium-r-*-120-* Symbol 12 idraw*font14: *-symbol-medium-r-*-140-* Symbol 14 idraw*font15: *-symbol-medium-r-*-240-* Symbol 24 From: pnevmati@milhouse.cs.wisc.edu (Dionisios N. Pnevmatikatos) ----------------------------------- You can get the fonts and a xterm resources file from bashan.cs.wisc.edu using anonymous ftp. The relevant files are in the /pub/hellenes/X11.greek directory and are called: Gterm.rsrc and greekXfonts.shar ======================================================================= 7. Backgammon servers ====================== From: jdd1@cec2.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas) ------------------------- -Backgammon Servers telnet ouzo.rog.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.130.46] 4321 telnet solana.mps.ohio-state.edu [128.146.37.78] 3200 offers: Play Backgammon! (Login: guest) ====================================================================== End of Technical Part of the FAQ -- Nick (Nikolaos) Fotis National Technical Univ. of Athens, Greece HOME: 16 Esperidon St., InterNet : nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr Halandri, GR - 152 32 UUCP: mcsun!pythia!theseas!nfotis Athens, GREECE FAX: (+30 1) 77 84 578 ***************************************************************** Soc.Culture.Greek Frequently Asked Questions and Answers ======================================================== (Linguistics) ============= Last Change: 17 April 1993 [ ANYONE WHO WANTS TO EDIT IT, SO IT CAN BE MORE ORGANIZED / READABLE ??? ] Many FAQs, including this one, are available on the archive site rtfm.mit.edu [18.70.0.224] in the directory pub/usenet/news.answers. The name under which a FAQ is archived appears in the Archive-name line at the top of the article. This FAQ is archived as greek-faq/linguistics There's a mail server on that machine. You send a e-mail message to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu containing the keyword "help" (without quotes!) in the message body. Items Changed: -------------- [ ANYONE WHO WANTS TO SPLIT IT INTO MORE SUBJECTS, SO IT CAN BE MORE ORGANIZED??? ] -- Lines which got changed, have the `#' character in front of them. Added lines are prepended with a `+' Removed lines are just removed. Use 'diff' to locate these changes. I have included my comments within braces '[' and ']'. Nikolaos Fotis ======================================================================== This text is (C)Copyright 1992, 1993 of Nikolaos C. Fotis. You can copy freely this file, provided you keep this copyright notice intact. Compiled by Nikolaos (Nick) C. Fotis, e-mail: nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr Please contact me for updates,corrections, etc. Disclaimer: that's only a hasty collection of texts and information as I (or other people) remember it, so this file is worth only what you paid for it (and even less! ;-) ) ======================================================================== Subjects: ========= 1. Difference between Ancient Greek pronunciations and modern ============================================================= Greek pronunciations?? ====================== [ ANYONE WHO WANTS TO EDIT IT, SO IT CAN BE MORE ORGANIZED??? ] I ask the people to send me stuff in order to make this file more complete. I'm just a kind of editor, and I cannot know everything. YOU'll determine if this FAQ is good or not! ======================================================================== 1. Difference between Ancient Greek pronunciations and modern ============================================================= Greek pronunciations?? ====================== [ This question spawned a HUGE thread!! I'm quoting from the various correspodents who participated in this thread . Basically, there are two subtopics here: a. How does one express pronounciation of Greek text in English-like languages? b. How did ancient Greeks pronounce their written works?? There's no end to this debate. I'm just quoting the various opinions and (mis)information ;-) presented in USENET -- nfotis . I hope no one asks again about that subject :-/ ] From: adjg@sour.sw.oz.au (Andrew Gollan) ---- drg@candidus.ma30.bull.com (Daniel R. Guilderson) writes: |I have an English translation of Homer's Odyssey. There is a |pronunciation key in an appendix but the author states that ALL 'c's |are pronounced as 'k' and all 'ch's as 'kh'. Well I know that modern |Greeks pronounce Chios as hee'os. So how would you pronounce Circe^ |(circumflex over the e) and Cynthera? I can't imagine pronouncing |Circe^ as kir'kee, although anything is possible I suppose. |Maybe someone from s.c.g can comment on some of the differences |between Ancient Greek pronunciations and modern Greek pronunciations? You are pushing shit uphill trying to reconstruct the Classical Greek pronunciation from the "English" equivalents. All but a very few English works adopt the Latinized spellings of the Greek names, which were themselves at best an approximation. We then apply modern English pronunciation to the Latin spellings resulting in completely warped pronunciation. Latinized Greek letter Sound --------- ------------ ----- a (short) alpha u as in 'cup' a (long) alpha a as in 'father' b beta b as in 'bed' c kappa as french hard c: 'comment' d delta d as in 'dog' e (short) epsilon e as in 'pet' e (long) eta as all of 'air' f - - g gamma g as in 'god' h (initial) rough breathing h as in 'hot' i iota i as in 'pit' j - - k kappa as french hard c: 'comment' l la(m)bda l as in 'lid' m mu m as in 'mud' n nu n as in 'net' o (short) omicron o as in 'pot' o (long) omega aw as in 'awful' p pi as french p: 'Paris' q - - r rho rolled r as in french: 'rue' s sigma s as in 'sad' (mostly) t tau as french t: 'tu' u omicron+upsilon oo as in 'tool' v - - w - - x xi x as in 'fax' (even first in a word) y (short) upsilon as french u: 'tu' y (long) upsilon as french u: 'sur' z zeta zd ch khi c as in 'cot' (emphatically) ph phi p as in 'pot' (emphatically) th theta t as in 'top' (emphatically) ae alpha+iota as all of 'eye' au alpha+upsilon as ow in 'cow' ei epsilon+iota a as in 'take' eu epsilon+upsilon as all of 'yew' (sort of) oi omicron+iota oy as in 'boy' The latinization is not quite regular in its treatment of upsilon. Words which start with upsilon in Greek always have a rough breathing (i.e. an initial 'h') but this is not always transcribed into latin. Also some upsilons are transcribed as 'u' not 'y', which adds to the confusion. Note the major differences between the long and short versions of the vowels, this, combined with the total absense of any marking for the length, gives you a lot of leeway for mispronouncing these names. Without looking them up in the Greek you just can't know the length. The Greek accent of the time was a melodic rather than the modern stress accent. There were three marks an acute ('), a grave (`) and a circumflex (~) which indicated the type of pitch change to apply to a word. Almost all words have exactly one stress mark somewhere in the last three syllables. This is not recorded in the Latinization. From: ccc@cs.toronto.edu ("Christina C. Christara") ---- It seems correct that the c's are pronounced as k's. In ancient Greek, an i is pronounced as i in kit (i.e. short ee) An eta is pronounces as ee (i.e. long) An y is also pronounced same as i (but thinner). Therefore Circe^ should be Kirkee and Cynthera Kintheera. Here the `th' combination is pronounced as the first 2 letters in `think'. In modern Greek, i, eta, and y are all pronounced almost the same. There is no short, long, thin e. As for the 'ch's I don't think that there is a respective sound in English. The closest is a strong 'h'. 'kh' is not that far either. Also, as far as I know, ancient Greeks pronounced the first sound of some words deeper than modern Greeks. These words, when they lost the deep sound in the beginning (this could have happened at the end of the Hellenistic period), were written with a so-called `spirit' (daseia in Greek) to remind the deep sound. Such words are found in English starting with `h'. Examples `hyper' (yper), hippopotamus (ippopotamos), hero (eros, pronounced eeros, this does not mean love) horizon (orizwn, the w is omega), rhetor (retwr) etc. Another difference between ancient and modern Greek pronounciation is the diphthong case. Modern Greeks pronounce `ai' as `e' (epsilon), `ou' as `u' (as in put), `ei' as `ee', `eu' as `ef' or `ev', `au' as `af' or `av', while ancient Greeks pronounced the two sounds with their original sound, i.e. each phthong separetely, without creating new phtongs. From: kd@doc.ic.ac.uk (Kostis Dryllerakis) ---- There is a wide debate about the pronunciation of ancient greek. It is obvious that we have no sound record of the era and we can only reconstruct sounds from their evolution to modern greek (actually there are studies about the "special" words that imitate sounds like pain, and animal sounds but I haven't heard of definite conclusions). The controvercy on the pronunciation of ancient greek started when European classic scholars requested a code to be adopted as the "standard one" among them. Erasmus is principally responsible for the pronunciation given to ancient greek from scholars even now. His proposal was based to the closeness of the ancient greek to the latin-based languages and was many times arbitrary. Later in his life he is said to have renounced his own pronunciation scheme. So the controversy will remain live. For us greeks, we would like to believe that our language is not only close to ancient greek to its symbols but also to its sounds. I beleive that I speak for all of the fellow scientists when I say that we are at least amused by the pronunciation of the greek alphabet as used in mathematics related sciences. Take care when you refer to "correct pronunciation" to mention a particular era in history since you do not expect people at Homer's time to have pronounced things the same way as in classical or Hellenistic times. In case you believe this is possible it might be wise to also check the modern greek pronunciation. From: wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener) ---- The languages of Western Europe absorbed many Greek words and place names through Latin translations. Remember that in Latin, Cicero is pronounced "Kikero," Caesar as "Kaisar," and so forth. When these Latinised names were transmuted into English, French, and the other languages of Western Europe, the spelling for the most part remained the same, but the difference in pronounciation was not taken into account. Circe, if I am not mistaken, is indeed pronounced "kir'kee" in Greek. Interestingly, Russian and other Slavic languages preserved the ancient pronounciation of Greek names better than Western Europe. Cyprus, in Russian, is Kipr, Plato is "Platon," Thucydides is "Fukidid," etc. From: mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon) ---- úÿ > There is a wide debate about the pronunciation of ancient greek. >It is obvious that we have no sound record of the era and we can only >reconstruct sounds from their evolution to modern greek (actually there That is part, but only part, of the data. There are, additionally, the transcriptions of Greek words into other languages (Latin, Persian, Coptic, Hebrew, Aramaic, and on into the later movements of peoples of various languages), all variously well known -- plus of course borrowing in the other direction INTO Greek, at various times. There are also the comments on pronunciation BY ancient Greek grammarians (not as good at this as the Sanskrit school leading to Panini, but still quite valuable). All of this can be used to cross-check and validate/falsify hypotheses about ancient Greek pronunciations, and the hypotheses themselves and the standards for reasoning about them derive from a very considerable modern development of phonology and theoretical linguistics. None of this makes the results "certain" -- but a lot more is securely known than in the first fumbling days of the rediscovery of Greek by the Western Europeans. It is also a somewhat distinct issue from that of a TEACHING pronunciation of Greek -- there are enough unresolved (and probably unresolvable) problems like just how to produce the pitch accents (simply importing Asian models begs the question) that teachers generally follow and establish local practive even knowing that it is not a good "reproduction" of the ancient sound. From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) ---- >Maybe someone from s.c.g can comment on some of the differences >between Ancient Greek pronunciations and modern Greek pronunciations? The big differences: The differences between H, I, Y, EI, OI and YI (did I forget one?) have become extinct. Actually, the popular Greek singer Savvopoulos and some computer-armed speech scientists came forward a few years ago, proving that a difference still exists, although it is nowhere as pronounced as it used to be. Ditto for O and W (omega), ditto for E and AI. The 'h' sound before some words (represented by ` on the first letter) has dissapeared. Example Hellas -> Ellas. Ditto for the differences in pronounciation marked by psili vs daseia vs perispomeni. For that reason, (and to ease the transition to automation), all these punctuation points were merged to one, a few years ago. But what do I know? I am a programmer, not a linguist. J.T.Pring writes in his preface of the Oxford Dictionary of Modern Greek: <> [things in brackets are Michael's comments] From: ls1@cec1.wustl.edu (Lambros Skartsis) ---- [ About the Erasmian model of pronounciation ] > ccc@cs.toronto.edu ("Christina C. Christara"): > >> ls1@cec1.wustl.edu (Lambros Skartsis) >> >>I think that it was Erasmus who first claimed the above, as well as that >>the today's "soft" greek consonents (ghamma, dhelta, etc.) were pronounced >>as "hard" by the ancients (i.e., "g", "d", etc.) - and so the term >>Erasmian pronounciation. I believe that this theory is very highly >>disputed today. > >I received another message about this, and I think you are right. >Indeed, I have heard that there is a dispute about the pronounciation >proposed by Erasmus, and that many of his interpretations of the >Greek sounds/letters/language are questioned. >When I was in high-school I was taught the Erasmian interpretation >and nothing else. I heard about the dispute later. Actually, even this dispute became an emotional matter for the greeks. If you really think about it, not only the language but the way it is pronounced is a matter related to the national characteristics of a nation. Imagine ancient greek pronounced the Erasmian way: with all these hard consonents and the abundance of two-vowel sets (i.e., vowel followed by vowel). The latter is something that we know very well that was considered as quite bad-sounding to a anc.greek's ear ("hasmodia"). Actually the whole effect would be an almost .... dutch sounding - and hence the accusation by many greeks that all these Erasmian theories so often adopted by germanic scholars were a part of the well-known trend of association of ancient greek culture/arian theories/modern germanic peoples. The greeks of course go to the other extreme and often preach that hardly any basic change occured in accent. For the dipthong pronounciation argument (i.e., e.g. "oi"="i" or "o-i") I had seen some time ago the following evidence against the Erasmian pronounciation [the validity of the theory behind which , as I said earlier, I believe not to be that popular any more(?)]: an Athenian speaker is said to have confused his audience by the use of the word "loimos" vs. "limos" (both, in modern greek would be pronounced as "leemos", while they mean [in both anc. and modern greek] a desease and hunger, respectively). For a confusion to have occured, it is argued, both words should have been pronounced the same in ancient greek, as well. From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires) ---- [Mr. Fouliras notes that 1) noone really knows what the *real* pronunciation was like, 2) that accent marks were added later to help with the learning task, 3) that there were various dialects of ancient Greek.] As my final contribution to this thread, I will note that the author of the above tape set spends many minutes at the beginning of the tapes making all of these points, and more, discussing why we should bother learning how to pronounce ancient Greek (not only for intellectual honesty, but for a complete aesthetic experience); how we know the way the language was pronounced (a specific greek Grammerian was mentioned, talking about the circumflex ("bending the pitch"), the grave and acute accents, as well as a specific example of how the borrowing of a Greek word into Latin (pilosopia) gives a clue to the pronunciation of 'p,'); and finally, that there were various dialects -- the Aeolic, the Attic, the Ionic -- and that the only one of these that we have much evidence for is the Attic of classical Athens, that though we have few clues how Homeric Greek might have been spoken, since the received texts of Homer are from the later period anyway, this is what is will be covered. The narrator fully acknowledges that although his reconstruction is necessarily hypothetical, nevertheless it is based on solid scholarship, and he references the _Vox Graeca_ that others in this thread have mentioned, and another work I can't recall now, also discussing why his reconstruction is superior to that of Erasmus. Included in the tape are examples of the opening lines of the Iliad, as spoken by a modern Greek, by a person speaking the Erasmeian reconstruction, and his reconstruction, including all of the pitch and metrical accents. The tapes, after covering the pronunciation of individual letters, progresses to that of the various accent marks, and then to how to master the poetical meter of e.g. Homer, using a five step learning process. The last examples given are passages from major authors like Aeschylus, Euripides, Plato, and lastly, that of the only complete extant poem of Sappho, with a soooo exquisite dovely cooing quality to it that my spine tingles now thinking of it. From: wiltinkm@dutiws.twi.tudelft.nl (M. Wiltink.a73A.telnr-015-138378) ---- It seems to me that most, if not all of the people here start with English renderings of Latinised versions of Greek names and then wonder where things went wrong. The Greeks had no such letter as the c. They had sigma, which poses no problems and becomes s, and kappa, k. This is where most of the trouble starts. Most Greek words passed on to recent times came via Latin. Latin, however, had no (well, almost no) k and used c, pronounced ...k. Then modern languages started pronouncing c as either s or k, depending on what letter followed it. Believe it or not, ALL c's in words derived from Greek should be pronounced k. The same, by the way, goes for c's in Latin words, though this should not be taken to mean that I want everybody to pronounce 'circus' 'kirkus'. There are words that have become sufficiently English to pronounce them by the rules for English, which say that ce, ci are pronounced se, si. But in most Greek names, I myself do prefer to write and pronounce k - Alkibiades, to name one example. [ ccc@cs.toronto.edu ("Christina C. Christara") comments on the last paragraph: I agree, with a minor comment. I think the (ancient) Greeks had 2 alphabets, which were very similar to each other. One was called western or Chalkidean (by people from Chalkis) and the other eastern or Ionian (by people from Asia Minor, centered in Miletos). I think (but I am not sure) that the western had a 'c'. But Athens at some point around 400 BC decided to adopt the eastern- Ionian alphabet and drove all Greeks in that way. The western-Chalkidean alphabet was used as basis for the Latin alphabet (indirectly through the Etruscan one?). Todays Greek alphabet is the eastern-Ionian one, with the lower case letters developed later. End of parenthesis -- nfotis ] The same goes for ai, which became ae in Latin and is generally, though not universally, pronounced ay as in 'hay'. Personally and subjectively, I prefer the sound found in 'high'. The upsilon, u, is a bit different. It was transcribed y in Latin but in German and in Scandinivian languages y is still pronounced u. This is sometimes a major source of irritation for me, as most ski-jumping commentators pronounced 'Nyk\"anen' 'Nikaanen' instead of 'Nukaynen' during the time he was all over Sportnet. From: cla02@keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace) ---- [ Regarding the last post... ] This is almost, but not quite, right. There were in fact many Greek alphabets. I suspect every city had its own variant. and even within cities there is not total consistency. They do, however, fall into families, and the division between east and west is significant. The origin of the letter c is rather odd. The Romans got their alphabet from the Etruscans, who got it from the Greeks. There is a dispute as to whether the alphabet the Etruscans adopted was a west or east Greek alphabet. Common sense would suggest that they got it from the nearest Greeks to them, those in Cumae, who used a variant of the west Greek alphabet. On the other hand, the occasional use of the east Greek letter samech is evidence against this view. It was not, however, the Athenian alphabet; it contained, for example, the letter Koppa, which became the ancestor of our Q. Etruscan did not distinguish between voiced and unvoiced gutturals (K and G), and so used both of those letters for the same sound. The Romans, however, did (like us) make the distinction, but instead of doing the rational thing and reinstating the original uses of the Greek letters, they marked the gamma to signify when it was unvoiced. So: C is originally a gamma (write a capital gamma leaning a bit and you will see how it happened); G is a gamma with a marker to show that it really is a gamma. And that is why the Roam alphabet acquired 3 letters for the same sound: K,C and Q. Just to make life complicated, in some forms of Greek writing the sigma is written a bit like our c. This has been adopted by some modern scholars (we call it the lunate sigma) especially by epigraphists who do not want to beg questions about where words end. [ In another post, regarding Greek alphabets ] úÿ Lambros Skartsis (ls1@cec1.wustl.edu) wrote: : : cla02@keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace) writes: : : >... The Romans got their alphabet : >from the Etruscans, who got it from the Greeks. There is a dispute as to : >whether the alphabet the Etruscans adopted was a west or east Greek : >alphabet. Common sense would suggest that they got it from the nearest : >Greeks to them, those in Cumae, who used a variant of the west Greek : >alphabet. : : Richard, wasn't Cumae a colony of the greek city called Cyme, in Euboea? : (the colony retained the name Cyme, Cumae being the latin version). : That is the only theory I am aware of (I can't pretend to have much : knowledge on the : topic!), i.e., that Etruscans took their alphabet from Cyme. But did : the mother-city (metropolis) in Euboea use the west form of the alphabet? There is a tradition the Cumae was founded from the Greek city Cyme in Aeolis in Asia Minor (just a bit north of Smyrna). Strabo says it was a joint foundation of Chalcis and Cyme in Euboea, which explains its name (he says that they did a deal that the city should be called after Cyme, but be a colony of Chalcis) , but he also records traditions that it was a colony of Chalcis alone, and gives another explanation for the name. I would guess that this means that the Cyme stories are just attempts at etymology (but who knows?). Anyway, none of this is relevant, because they did use a version of the Chalcidian alphabet in Cumae. I think the Chalcidian alphabet is classified as a Western alphabet, isn't it? [ He checked, in David Diringers 'The Alphabet' (3rd edition I think), and he seems right ] From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires) ---- The Pronunciation and Reading of Ancient Greek: A Practical Guide Stephen G. Daitz ISBN 0-88432-125-8 Audio Forum, a div. of Jeffrey-Norton Publishers On-The-Green, Guillford, CT 06437 New York sales office: 145 E. 49th, NY,NY 10017 London sales 31 Kensington Church St. London W8 4LL, U.K. Other tapes in The Living Voice of Greek and Latin Lit.: _The Birds_ Cicero, selections _Hekabe_ Greek Poetry The P. & R. of Ancient Latin From: filippou@cs.mcgill.ca (Dimitrios FILIPPOU) ---- From "Vox Graeca: A Guide to Pronunciation of Classical Greek", by W. Sidney Allen, 3rd Edition, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, Great Britain 1987, pp. 177--179. SUMMARY OF RECOMMENDED PRONUNCIATIONS (`English' refers to the standard or `received' pronunciations of Southern British English. Asterisks indicate less accurate approximations.) alpha (short) As first `a' in Italian `amare' *As vowel of English `cup' (N.B. not as vowel of `cap') alpha (long) As second `a' in Italian `amare' *As `a' in English `father' alpha with iota As `alpha (long)' subscript alpha-iota As in English `high' alpha-upsilon As in English `how' alpha (long)- As `alpha-upsilon' upsilon beta As English `b' gamma (1) As English "hard" `g' (2) Before kappa, chi, gamma, mu: as `n' in English `ink' or `ng' in `song' delta As French `d' *As English `d' epsilon As in English `pet' epsilon-iota As in German `Beet' epsilon-upsilon Pronounce as two vowels: `epsilon' `upsilon' zeta [zd] as in English `wisdom' eta As in French `t^ete' eta with iota As `eta' subscript eta-upsilon As `epsilon-upsilon' theta As `t' in English `top' (emphatically pronounced) *As `th' in English `thin' iota (short) As in French `vite' *As in English `bit' iota (long) As in French `vive' *As in English `bead' kappa As French "hard" `c', or English (non-initial) `k', `ck', or "hard" `c' lambda As French `l', or English `l' before vowels *As English `l' in other contexts mu As English `m' nu As `n' in French or *English `net' xi As `x' in English `box' omicron As in German `Gott' *As in English `pot' omicron-iota As in English `boy', `coin' omicron-upsilon As in English `pool' or French `rouge' pi As French `p', or English (non-initial) `p' rho As Scottish "rolled" `r' sigma (1) As `s' in English `sing', or `ss' in `less', `lesson' (2) Before `beta', `gamma', `delta', `mu': as English `z' (N.B. but not elsewhere) sigma-sigma As `sigma' `sigma' tau As French `t' *As English (non-initial) `t' upsilon (short) As in French `lune' upsilon (long) As in French `ruse' upsilon-iota [no pronunciation rule given] phi As `p' in English `pot' (emphatically pronounced) *As `f' in English `foot' chi As `c' in English `cat' (emphatically pronounced) *As `ch' in Scottish `loch' psi As `ps' in English `lapse' omega As in English `saw' omega with iota As `omega' subscript [The author of this monography discusses also how to pronounce the accented vowels and the double consonants. In conclusion, he says that the accents should not be pronounced in a `melodic' way -- which, he states, was the way Ancient Greek was spoken --, but rather in a `stress-based' way like Byzantine and Modern Greek, because the Ancient Greek melodic pronounciation of accents is not known. He also states that the iota-subscript should not have any effect on the pronounciation of the vowel it accompanies. Finally, he says that double consonants should be pronounced the same as single ones, only a bit longer.] From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) ---- >By the way, Greek netters seem to have some ideological reason >to believe that their native language is very similar to >classical Greek. In practise I've had a lot of troubles when I think that there is some confusion here between 'language' and pronounciation. The language is extremely similar, especially if one compares late hellenistic period Greek (circa 1 a.d.) with modern Greek. It is much easier for me as a modern Greek to read the New Testament (1950 years old), that it is for an english-speaking person to read Chaucher (a modern piece of work, by comparison). The pronounciation changed a lot. But, again, changes since the late hellenistic period are minor compared to the changes to English since half that long ago. In general, it is agreed that Greek pronounciation has changed very little since 1000ad. In fact, as recently as a few decades ago, a number of regional dialects used syntactical and phonological features of corresponding ancient Greek dialects (in mountainous northern Laconia, for example, where the ancient Doric dialect survived practically intact). Unfortunately, after WWII, control of education was taken away from the local village/parish level, and all Greeks now sound like they are from Athens. Only recently did Greeks realise what a terrible waste of valuable cultural resources that was. [ When challenged "why these valuable resources, in light of the need to rebuild the country from zero?", in my words, he replied: 1. There was no effort to study and record these languages. Where some research was made (with the Tsakones, for example), dialects were found that were completely identical to the corresponding ancient Greek dialects for those regions. Having records of these dialects would provide us with valuable information about ancient and byzantine Greek. 2. Ditto for all the regional literature of these areas. Along with these dialects, we also tossed away volumes of oral tradition. Again, where ever research was made, the knowledge gained was tremendous. By the time the Greek state woke up to what had happened, and started funding research projects, many papoudes and giagiades had died, and with them many stories that the younger generation did not learn because anything said in a village dialect was considered 'unimportant' and 'uncultured'. The end result was the same as if though thousands of books had been burned. In all fairness, it is hard to blame anyone for what happened. With Greece badly underdeveloped in the 1920s, the big restructuring of education, which became totally centralised after WWII, was nescessary. Back then development was the only priority, and the funds for research were not available. ] >pronouncing Greek names in the classical way, which is usual >for Finns (even tourists without any classical education). >I was unable to find my way to Herakleion before I learned >to call it "Iraklio". But what is the 'Classical Way'? This subject started with a question on the pronunciation of 'Circee'. All english educated people know that úÿ this is pronounced 'Sir-see'. Yet, everyone who expressed an opinion on this group so far has agreed that the right pronounciation is 'Kir-kee'. As for "Herakleion', most americans would pronounce it 'He-ra-KLEI-on', because the anglisezed word does not carry the accent mark, which makes the classical prounanciation 'He-RA-klei-on'. According to J.T. Pring's comments which I posted a few days ago: Both the Eta (H) and the Epsilon-iota (EI) had become I by early byzantine times --> hi-RA-kli-on The initial h dissapeared by the fourth century AD --> i-RA-kli-on The final 'n' began dropping out of use in local dialects sinse Byzantine times, and is now becoming rare, but many people still use it, in fact pre-1980 road signs and maps usually read "HRAKLEION". So, one's classical pronounciation of 'Herakleion' would have been as much understood in 1992ad as it would have been understood in 400ad. Not bad, I think. From: filippou@cs.mcgill.ca (Dimitrios FILIPPOU) ------------------------------------------------- [ Regarding Allen's book ; added R. Wallace's and Stavros Macrakis' remarks to this message. R.Wallace's comments are prefaced with RW>, while Stavros' are prefaced with SM>; I hope these aren't too hard to follow -- nfotis ]: SM> Below, some comments on your notes. But the basic questions you don't SM> address are: why would the ancients bother to invent six different SM> ways of writing the sound "i"? And two different ways of writing "e" SM> or "o"? And sometimes doubling consonants, and sometimes not? And SM> how do you explain the structure of ancient poetry without referring SM> to syllable quantity, which depends on vowel length? SM> SM> The other issues (pronunciation of gamma as hard g or as gh, etc.) are SM> less important, because they don't change the STRUCTURE of the system. SM> In fact, I think it would make sense -- at least for teaching in SM> Greece -- to preserve the modern pronunciation for them. Keeping SM> distinct pronunciations for the diphthongs and long vowels (eta, SM> omega), on the other hand, would preserve the ancient structure and SM> seems important. First, let's see some *facts*: 1. The system of (Ancient and Modern) Greek writting -- as we know it today -- has been developped by the Alexan- drian and (mostly) by the Byzantine grammarians. For example, it is the Byzantines who introduced the small Greek letters around the 9th c. AD. RW> This is true, but the writing system is immaterial. There is a good deal RW> of inscription material from the 5th and 4th centuries BC, and arguments RW> from orthography are based on that. SM> Although the system of diacritics (accents, breathings, iota SM> subscript) was introduced by the Alexandrines, the consonants and SM> vowels were around long before that! As for small letters, I don't SM> see how that affects pronunciation. 2. There's not much -- if any at all -- difference between the Byzantine (after, say, 4-5th c. AD) pronounciation and the Modern Greek pronounciation. According to Allen himself, changes from the Ancient Greek pronounciation (i.e., Allen's version) to the Byzantine/Modern Greek pronounciation may have come as early as in the first century of Roman occupation of Greece (2nd c. BC). RW> Quite right. Spelling mistakes in 2nd century AD papyri seem to show that RW> substantial changes in pronunciation had taken place, while spelling (as RW> often) remained more conservative. I vividly remember the first time I RW> was faced with the text of a papyrus letter from this period, written by RW> a young man who clearly had not been paying attention to his teachers at RW> school! It didn't look like Greek at all! Then I pronounced it in the RW> Modern Greek way, and it all became clear. But the fact that the pattern RW> of variation in spelling is quite different from that of the 4th or 5th RW> centuries is evidence that pronunciation had changed (as you would RW> expect it to over such a period). 3. How the Ancient Greeks (here, we are talking about the Attic dialect, 5-4th c. BC) were pronouncing certain letters, diphthongs, etc. is and -- I think -- will remain an unsolved problem. SM> Of course, the _exact_ pronunciation will never be known, but there is SM> lots of evidence to help us get a good idea. Modern pronunciation is SM> one kind of evidence. On the one hand, we have the bleating of the sheep in Aristophanes which is written as: beta-eta (w. acc. circ.) -- beta -eta (w. acc. circ.) In Modern Greek pronounciation this reads: "vee-vee", when common logic suggests that it should be read as "bebe". Therefore, Allen recommends that "beta = `b' as in `book'"; and "eta ~= epsilon". RW> There is actually more to the argument than this. Latin, for example, RW> transliterates beta as a B, and epsilon as an E. SM> True, we expect sheep to say "be be" and not "vi vi", but there is a SM> lot of other evidence for these pronunciations. When you say SM> "therefore", it's as though this is the only evidence! On the other hand, we have the oracle of Delphoi to the Athenians, who could not understand whether it meant that they would suffer from famine ("limos") or from plague ("loimos") the first year of the Peloponnesian War (the Athenians' confusion is quoted by Thucydides). This confusion can be understood only if the Athenians were pronouncing iota = omicron-iota as Modern Greeks do. But Allen suggests: "NO! omicron -iota = o-ee (i.e., a "true" diphthong). (Allen discus- ses this notorious quote of Thucydides, but, I don't remember his points -- I returned the damned book :-( ) RW> No. The story requires the pronunciations to be similar, but not RW> identical. Some other *observations*: a. Allen accepts the Byzantine/Modern Greek pronounciation of the accents on the basis of "we don't know enough about the melodic accent reading of the Ancient Greeks". SM> I don't think he "accepts" the modern pronunciation as being a good SM> reconstruction; he simply recommends using it to simplify things, SM> since the tonal system is not fully understood, and adds a lot of SM> difficulty to teaching the language. Given what we know of the SM> Ancient Greek tonal system, by the way, it is more like the Japanese SM> or Serbian systems than it is like the Chinese system. Foreigners SM> have trouble learning the Japanese and Serbian systems, and in fact SM> usually "hear" the tones in those languages as stress patterns at SM> first. Given that there are no speakers of Ancient Greek, it would SM> seem unproductive to spend a lot of time teaching this. Conversely, SM> teaching modern pronunciation would NOT help travellers in Greece make SM> themselves understood! Could not this apply also in the way the Greek letters are read? I.e., once we don't know for sure how the Ancient Greeks were reading certain vowels, consonants, combinations of letters, etc., why don't we stick to the closest relative, the Byzantine/Modern Greek pronounciation? RW> Some people regard this as a good argument. At least Ancient Greek RW> pronounced as Modern Greek does sound as if it might be a real language! RW> The argument against is that the modern pronunciation makes nonsense of RW> Ancient Greek poetry, and loses much of the sound-play in any ancient RW> text. Personally, I find this objection compelling, but it is possible RW> to take a different view. But this is just a question of pedagogic RW> convenience, and doesn't contribute to the question of how the language RW> was pronounced. I think Allen is right about accents. It is certain that RW> the ancient accents were pitch accents (as in Chinese) rather than RW> stress accents; we know a good deal in theory about how they were RW> pronounved (the musical interval over which the voice moved on a RW> particular syllable and so on) but all actual attempts to put it into RW> pracitice seem unconvincing to me. And students have quite enough hassle RW> learning the language as it is! SM> Of course, we don't know "for sure", but we do have a lot of good SM> evidence, including borrowings, related languages, and the internal SM> structure of the language and the orthography. b. If we adopt Allen's recommendations certain sounds will be excluded from the Ancient Greek pronounciation. Even if Allen is right in saying that most likely "beta = English `b'", I find it hard to believe that the Ancient Greek (more precicely, the Athenians) had not ANY of the following soft (e.g., fricative) sounds in their vocabulary: v --> Modern Greek "beta" y (as in English `young') --> M.G. "gamma" th (as in English `there') --> M.G. "delta" th (a in English `theatre') --> M.G. "theta" All languages that I'm familiar with (Modern Greek, English and French) have at least some of the above sounds. Why not Ancient Greek? SM> !! Actually, the (modern) "gamma" (the gh sound before a/o/u, not the SM> y sound before i/e), "theta", and "dhelta" sounds are UNCOMMON in the SM> world's languages. For instance, none of Italian, Japanese, French, SM> Turkish, Serbian, German, or Hawaiian has any of them. c. If we adopt Allen's recommendations, we get a pronouncia- tion full of hiatuses ("hasmodies"). My poor ear suffers when I try to read loudly by Allen's system words such as: aiphnidiazomai (= I get surprised) chairekakos (= malicious), etc. SM> Why would you expect Ancient Greek to sound good to your ear? Latin SM> pronounced according to the historical pronunciation sounds strange to SM> Italians, too. as it suffers when I hear my colleagues talking about "k-eye" (and they mean "chi" = `hee'), or "ps-eye" (and they mean "psi" = `psee') in Maths. RW> Yes of course, what do you expect? And the pronunciation of Chaucerian RW> English sounds weird to me! But we will all agree that Mathematicians RW> pronounce Greek in a barbarous way! SM> These are of course incorrect pronunciations according to Allen. SM> Something like "k-eye" is the pronunciation of "kai" (and), not of the SM> letter chi. d. Allen makes a direct attack in the Preface of the latest edition of his monography, on another Swedish (?) scholar who dares to say that Attic Greek was pronounced almost the same as Byzantine/Modern Greek from the 4th c. BC. This attack -- it's just a dismissal of the Sewde's position w/out much justification -- has really surprised me. (I'm not used to such scholar stabbings in the Prefaces of books!) In conclusion, I believe that anyone who wants to learn Ancient Greek, he should better learn to pronounce it the way Byzantines did and (Modern) Greeks do. In this way, he/she will be learning at least 50% of the Modern Greek language as well! RW> If I were teaching a Greek, I might agree. The principal objection to RW> believing that the modern pronunciation is basically the same as the RW> ancient pronunciation (apart from the inherent plausibilty of any RW> language remaining unchanged in pronunciation for two and a half RW> thousand years, through a period when we know that accentuation, RW> grammatical structure, and vocabulary did change substantially) is that RW> it assumes that when the ancients adopted the alphabet they chose a RW> system which was by no means phonetic (i.e. there are several ways of RW> representing the same sound). In other words, the ancient greeks were RW> dotty, which I am unwilling to accept. It is surely more likely that RW> they initially adopted a system where there was a more or less RW> one-to-one correspondence between letters and sounds, and that gradually RW> pronunciation changed while orthography remained the same (as indeed it RW> has done in many languages, including English and French), leading to RW> these poor kids in the 2nd century AD getting all their spellings wrong. RW> That, I think, is where the evidence, but we will always be guessing. SM> Pronunciation is probably the easiest thing to learn about Modern SM> Greek if you know Ancient Greek. (Although of course too many SM> foreigners don't bother!) Dimitrios Filippou úÿ PS. I repeat: I'm not a classicist neither a linguist! Just an "boring/bored" engineer ....:-) ======================================================================== End of Linguistics Part of the FAQ -- Nick (Nikolaos) Fotis National Technical Univ. of Athens, Greece HOME: 16 Esperidon St., InterNet : nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr Halandri, GR - 152 32 UUCP: mcsun!pythia!theseas!nfotis Athens, GREECE FAX: (+30 1) 77 84 578 ******************************************************************************