1022
 Text of "Televised Conversation with Ross Perot" 
 To: National Desk, Political Writer
 Contact: Perot '92 Committee, 214-716-6516

   DALLAS, Oct. 22 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The following is the text
of tonight's "televised conversation with Ross Perot:"

           "Business Success, Leadership and His Life"
                       in the second part
               of our conversation with Ross Perot

   Murphy: Good evening. And welcome to a conversation with Ross
Perot.
   Ross, I would like for you to pick up your story after your career
in the Navy and also at IBM.  When you started your first business,
EDS, a company which brought a new idea to the computer world.  Who
gave you your first big break?

   Perot: February, 1963.  We finally got Frito Lay interested.  At
that point, IBM was determined that we wouldn't make the sale.  They
got Republic National Bank, the biggest bank in Texas; Arthur Young,
the biggest accounting firm in Texas; and the three of them went out
to Herman Lay, the founder of Frito Lay, and told him that if he did
business with this little outfit, we would put him under.  Mr. Lay
started Frito Lay cooking potato chips in his kitchen and delivering
them in his truck.  And one of the most beautiful stories in my
memory is after all these big companies left, Mr. Lay looked around
the room and said, "You know, this is interesting.  These boys from
EDS must have something.  Otherwise, all these big outfits wouldn't
be overreacting this way."  And he gave us our break.  And the rest
was history.  We sold one company after another.  And when I sold EDS
and left in 1986, I sold it to General Motors, a worldwide
organization with about 45,000 employees.  It was a wonderful 24-year
experience.
   Now let's go back to why EDS was so successful.  One common thing
you see about people who built very successful businesses is they
don't have all the skills.  They are normally of average intelligence
and they reach out and surround themselves with very talented people.
All the credit for the success of EDS goes to those people.  They did
unbelievable things.  I could tell you stories by the hour.
   We did in three months what all the rest of the industry took 18
months to do.  These small high-talent teams...they could climb a
cliff covered with ice in three minutes that everybody else would
say, "Wait till spring."  We really had a lot of fun, but it's
very important to me to always point out that I started it...with an
incredible team of people built it, and most of the time I was just
sitting there with them having fun.  They did it.

   Murphy: You have said since the first day the success of EDS is
its people.  What was your philosophy about people at EDS?

   Perot: Well, a lot of colorful stories in the company about that.
About meetings and things we had on that subject.  But the general
theme is I don't care who you are, I don't care where you come from.
I don't care where you went to school...I don't care if you went to
school.  I don't care what color you are.  I don't care what race you
are.  I don't care what sex you are.  And finally one day we had a
recruiter, a former Marine.  He says, "Perot, do you care about
anything?" And I says, "Yeah, I care about what you can do and what
you've done lately.  That's all I care about."  And that became the
theme.  What you can do and what you've done lately.
   And then we got into...I said, "Well now, what kinds of folks
are we looking for.  Big corporate America, 5'10", blond, blue
ees, MBA, 3.6 grade point. Got him, right?" EDS, smart, tough,
self-reliant.  People who have been a success since childhood.
People who love to win.
   And then finally we had a guy raise his hand one day.  He
said, "Well, what if we run out of people who love to win, Ross."
And I said, "Just find people who hate to lose."
   Now see, that spirit gave us an incredible edge over anybody
else.  Now we were like the three musketeers.  One for all and
all for one and we stuck together.  We lived those philosophies.
   See, everybody...the newest entry-level employee had
the same health benefits I had.  That sends a message.  I could
afford a doctor.  A health problem in his family would be a crisis.
Anytime, night or day, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, anybody on
the EDS team or his family had a health crisis, it was a five-alarm
alert to see that the same doctors and the same medical attention was
given to the family member or that person that would be given to a
member of my family.  Now see, that spirit gives you a winning edge.
Nobody ever had to worry about himself.  Nobody ever had to look over
shoulder.  There was never any question that if something happened to
you who would take care of your family.  We were a family.

   Murphy: And the public got a look at your commitment to that
family back in 1979 when you assembled a team to rescue two EDS
employees from Iran.  But before we discuss that, I would like to
talk about one of your other lifelong commitments.  To the POWs and
MIAs of the Vietnam war.  How did you get involved in that?

   Perot: I first got involved because one of the wives approached
me, her husband was missing.  She didn't know whether he was dead or
alive.  She brought her little boy in.  And we started pressing the
Vietnamese about whether or not he was alive.  They admitted he was
alive.  They allowed him to write and they had to account for him.
   And then as we got deeper and deeper into this, we realized what a
tragedy it was because the men were dying literally.  Dying in
prison.  From brutality and neglect.  We came up with the idea of a
Christmas trip.  We took that to Washington, got it cleared.  Then we
came up with idea of families whose husbands were missing, including
their children going to Paris that same Christmas.  We
chartered...and got approval for that.  We chartered a plane to
Paris.  Chartered a plane to Laos.  Filled the plane to Laos with
specific things the POWs needed.  We got that from POWs who had been
released.
   Now this is something we didn't know until later.  While
we were on the ground in Laos, they changed the treatment.  They took
a man out of a box that had been there for five years, who had lost
his ability to speak.  People who had been tortured brutally.  People
who had not had adequate food or medicine.  Very large men who were
down to 100 pounds.  They started giving them proper nutrition
because they realized that in a war where everything else favored
them, they were being brutalized across the world for the way they
treated our prisoners.  The impact of that Paris trip was awesome.
These women and children on Christmas Day begging for information
about their loved one.
   We kept it up for three years.  They came home in 1973 and it was
a big day when they came home and, God bless them, they called us in
the Philippines and said, the man who called said, "Ross, I had two
calls.  I called my wife, and I called you on behalf of the other
prisoners because they asked me to call you."  And I said, "Well, I
appreciate that, but how did they know to call me?"  And he laughed,
and said, "Ross, everybody shot down brought the message in of what
you were doing and why you were doing it."  I never knew that, but
the people flying missions after '69 carried the message in.  "We
knew we were not forgotten.  We knew why the treatment changed.  We
knew the American people cared for us."  And I then said, "Well if
you had two calls you were nice to call me, but you called the wrong
person.  You should have called Col. Simons who then went to Son Tay,
the prison outside of Hanoi.  They risked their lives for you."  And
I loved his response.  Without any hesitation, he said, "You're
right."
   Now I said, "Let's do this, Jerry.  As soon as you get home, after
you've seen your families, why don't all of you all come together to
thank the men who went to Son Tay?"  He said, "We'll do it."
   A couple of weeks later they called and said, "We are ready to do
it and we want to do it in San Francisco."  I said, "Guys, you've
been away too long.  San Francisco is a rough town as far as Vietnam
is concerned.  You'll have a lot of demonstrations."
   They said, "Perot, it's the best party town in the country.
That's where we want it."  I said, "That's where we will have
it."  To make a long story short, I sent a couple of young tigers
out to San Francisco.  The city fathers embraced them.  They
planned the biggest parade in the history of San Francisco.
It went off without a hitch.  There was only one demonstrator
on the whole parade and that was not a problem.
   And it's a weekend I will never forget because the sergeants,
the special tough guys came from all the world, their wives
met them there.  Col. Simons was there and the men who had
endured hell for all of us for up to eight years came together,
not to be recognized but to thank the men who went to save them.
And that is certainly one of the most memorable weekends.  I
was just sort of standing in the shadows watching it, but it
was beautiful.
   Now Mrs. Reagan was there.  And the most memorable thing
that I recall about the celebrities is I introduced Col. Arthur
Simons to John Wayne.  Big tears came in John Wayne's eyes,
and he said, "Colonel, you are in real life the role I only
play in the movies."  Now see we get all confused.  John Wayne
never did any of those things.  I really admired him for saying,
just openly, "I've never done any of these things, these are
just parts I play.  You've done it.  See, you've done it."

    Murphy: Did we leave people behind in Vietnam after that war?

   Perot: See, when I was in Laos, I talked to the Pathet Laos,
that's the communist Laos.  I talked to the people in our embassy,
who briefed me about the prisoners held by the Pathet Laos.  I talked
with the Pathet Laos leader in Vientiane and asked him if there would
be any way possible to get a list because it would mean so much to
families.  This is 1970.  He said, "I see no reason why not.  Come
back tomorrow." I came back the next day.  He says, "I cannot do it."
   Then I talked to him and he boasted about holding large numbers of
Americans.  The day before I had been told by the CIA chief and the
ambassador...the CIA chief in the Embassy...that they did hold large
numbers of Americans and that we knew that because we had broken the
radio codes, and we knew who they held and where they were.  But that
we could not rescue them because we would probably get them killed
trying to rescue them.
   Now, fast forward to 1973 in the Paris Peace Negotiations.  Dr.
Kissinger and those in the peace negotiations are moving heaven and
earth to get the prisoners back.  There was no stomach, though, to
give them any leverage in this country.  At that time, the same
communist Laos leader that I talked with stepped forward and said,
"We hold large numbers of prisoners, but we will not give our
prisoners up until you, until you, the United States of America, pay
us our part of the reparations money that President Nixon had
promised.  Three hundred fifty people, Murphy, 350 people in Laos,
350 great American patriots, Air Force, Navy, Army people and some
CIA people.  And some Air America people, Continental Air services
people.  There was zero will on the part of the American people to
crank up that war again for any reason.  And this breaks my heart to
say it, but we left them in Laos.  And we left 350.  And the evidence
is overwhelming.
   Now then, over the years the intelligence evidence
that men stayed alive and the satellite evidence, and the evidence of
intercepted radio traffic of people taken from Laos to Russia for
interrogation, and on and on and on and on and on, is overwhelming.
   There is only one question, "Is there anyone still alive today?"
One of my problems with the people in Washington now is they say
certainly they now admit after twenty-some-odd years, "We left them.
But there's no one left alive."  That is a sad way to approach it.
   The way it should be approached to Laos specifically is, "Look,
prove, prove -- what did you do with them?  We know you have them.
You boasted about having them.  If you killed them all, show us the
mass graves like the Russians did on the Polish officers.  Account
for them." There is no pressure to do that.  Keep in mind we never
admitted we were at war in Laos.  We pretended we weren't.  It was a
war run by the CIA, but fought by uniformed military people.  And
this is a tragedy.
   Let me say this, if there is one person alive,
the principle is still the same as if there were 350.  There is
reasonably fresh evidence of people still being alive.  Now I really
care about this, and if this is a country that can write off one
person who goes into combat and puts his life on the line for us,
just because it's expeditious, I'm out of sync.  And in the event
that the American people send me to Washington as their servant, I
don't think there is any question in anybody's mind who ever wore the
uniform of the United States of America, this is going to be dealt
with head-on as a high priority.  And we are not going to duck it
even though we've ducked it for twenty-some odd years.  You never
send troops into combat and leave them.
   And the whole lesson, and I'll leave it on this note, the
lesson learned from all these tragedies around Vietnam and Laos
is first commit the nation and then commit the troops.  Never
send people into combat if we are not committed back here.
That's the tragedy of that way.

   Murphy: Never send them into combat and leave them, nor do you
send employees to foreign countries to work and abandon them there.
Tell us about that Iran rescue.  Ken Follett made it into a best
seller, but we'd like to hear it in your words.

   Perot: We were doing business in Iran.  Suddenly as the revolution
was taking place, they became...and the Americans were leaving...they
became frightened that we would leave and they could not run the
computers.  We had no plans to leave.  We had made elaborate plans
because of our obligation to keep the computers running with Iranian
employees and some of our key employees who were willing to stay.
But they just took the first two American hostages were our two top
people.
   Dec. 28, 1978, I got a call from Bill Gayden, who was in
charge of our International Operations, I couldn't believe it.  At
two in the morning I called a man who ran the Son Tay raid, Col.
Arthur Simons, a legendary figure who is now retired.  He was living
on a farm in Florida.  His wife had died several months earlier.  I
woke him up at two in the morning.  He and I had not spoken in seven
years.  I explained my problem to him and when I finished, I asked
him if he would come to Dallas to help develop a backup plan to
rescue our people.  And when I finished, I'll never forget his words.
..after this pure silence, he said, "Yeah, I'll do it." And then
Col. Simons came to Dallas.
   I had hired several thousand Vietnam veterans as a matter
of principle.  One of the great success stories inside EDS is
the leadership skills these young 26-, 27-year-old people brought
back with them.  They'd been back ten years, now it's 1979.
   So I went through the ranks of all these...we probably had
five or six thousand by then, picked out the ones with the most
battlefield experience, the most highly decorated, so on and so
forth.  Col. Simons interviewed them, he picked his rescue team.
   Now the most memorable event of my life was when we called
the rescue team together for the first time.  I had never asked
people to risk their lives.  These were people with tremendous
combat records, but they had wives, children, mortgages.  All
the responsibilities of young families.  Ten years off the
battlefield.  I hoped one out of five would say yes.  Every
single person volunteered.
   Now see that's what's so great about our country.  Every
single person without any hesitation volunteered because those
were their friends and you don't leave your friends behind.
It's the same principle as a POW.
   And now again, my mother is now dying of cancer.  She was
absolutely riveted on these two men because of her concern for
them and their families.  And that dominated the conversation
every time I would go to the hospital.
   It came to, I needed to go in. The country was in total
chaos.  There was a good chance she would never see me again.  When I
finished discussing it with her, without a trace of emotion she said,
"These are your men, you sent them over there.  They didn't do
anything wrong.  The government won't do anything to get them out."
I've left that out.  We tried every way in the world to get help from
our government.  Didn't get any.  "The government won't do anything
to get them out.  It's your responsibility to get them out."
   To make a long story short, I went over.  By then they had moved
them into a much more secure prison. It was a fortress.  I was in
Tehran for about a week.  Nobody knew I was there until I went to the
U.S. Embassy, then some Iranian working in the Embassy told
everybody, and they were tearing the town up for me because I was a
better hostage.  But I blended in, stayed out of sight.
   Then, now one of my purposes was to go into the prison and
brief the two men about the rescue...about being ready and we
were going to come get them.  I'll never forget Col. Simons.  He
says, "No problem, you can go on into the prison." And I said,
"Now why is that, Colonel?"  He said, "Well, one branch of the
government is looking for you and another branch of the government
runs the prisons, and no chance they will coordinate anything."
   And I said, "Well, are you going to go in
with me?" And he says, "No, there is no need for me to go." Pure
Simons, never take a risk you don't have to take.  I went into the
prison.  Camera crews were standing there. I thought, "Oh my gosh,
this is it." They ignored me.  I got into the prison.  I found out
why.  Ramsey Clark was there.  Ramsey Clark recognized me. I shook
hands with Ramsey Clark.  The general then decided I must be all
right.  They say, "Look, look, look, look." And I got to see our two
people in privacy.  And we got to have a really good conversation.
And I made it very clear to them that we were going to get them out,
but not to get up every morning thinking that was the day.
Otherwise, they would just burn up all their adrenalin.  Be patient.
We had a team in place.  Their pals were back in the country.  Well,
to make a long story short, on the magic day they did it.
   Excuse me, before that I left the country because my job was to be
in Turkey with a backup team in case they got in trouble and we would
try to come in and get the rescue team out.  As I was leaving, Bill
Gayden, the head of International, was coming in.  And I had not
asked him to come in, and I said, "Bill, why are you here?" He said,
"Because my men are here." And I said, "Well, when will I see you
again?" And he says, "When you see them." Now that's leadership,
Murphy.  What kind of country would we be if we had that kind of
leadership.  Here's a man, very wealthy man.  Doesn't even have to
work.  But he had to be there.  He left his wife and his two
daughters to be there, because his men were over there unfairly in
prison.  Now guess who the last man to come out of Turkey was. Bill
Gayden.  Everybody else came out, then Gayden walked out.  That's
leadership.  Okay.
   I'm leaving the airport, they are tearing the city up looking for
me.  They've gotten my name and my picture at the airport.  I have to
fill out all these forms.  This goes back to my luck.  The girl that
was to check me through was reading a paperback novel.  She pulled my
yellow sheet up that had my name on it.  She stamped my passport, she
never looked at any of it.  This was five minutes before the plane
was to leave.  I thought, "Well, this is it. I'd made it." Eight
hours later I was sitting fifty feet from her, because the plane was
delayed.  And I had pumped all the adrenalin in the first twenty
minutes, so I was just sitting there relaxed.  She never checked the
documents, and I got out.  For the first time in my life I really
worried about my luck running out, and I will never forget when the
plane cleared the runway.  In my head, this literally happened, I had
an hourglass with the sand running out and I turned it around.  And I
thought, "Well, we got a fresh start on your luck."
   Well, we came back.  Everything was set.  Got the rescue team into
Turkey.  Came all the way into the Eastern Turkey to be
spring-loaded.  Those guys were ready to take the worst risk of all.
Led by some great people.  But to make a long story short, pure
Col. Simons, rescue went without a hitch.  There was not a single
casualty in the prison.  Now, we got back to Dallas.  All the
amilies were there.  It was one of the high points in my life to see
Paul and Bill reunited with their wives and children.  And my mother
who was dying of cancer had given...she had just said, "I'm going to
the airport to see these people reunited with their children." That
was in February.  She died in May.  But see as far as she was
concerned, this is something you had to do.  We had to do it and we
did  Now, my last words as we left the airport that day, as I
looked at all the rescue team and I said, "Guys, we're not going to
do this again.  We're going to get out of the country early if we're
ever around a revolution.  Once is enough for a lifetime."

   Murphy: Ross, something else you feel like you have to do is to
support causes that you believe in here at home, including education.
How did you get involved in these issues?

   Perot: Well, first through my parents.  The example they set as a
child.  I'd been taught always to share with other people.  Secondly,
Margot was a huge influence on me and she is a very kind and generous
person.  So within thirty days after we first had more money than we
needed to pay the bills, we gave away half of it to people in need.
We gave it to a program for disadvantaged children, it was a special
school.  It was a Dunbar school.  It was in the poorest part of
Dallas.  Primarily Black and Hispanic children.  The logo of the
school was a thumbprint.  It is what we now call early childhood
education.  This is 1968.  This is pretty soon after the Civil Rights
Act was passed.  These little children were way behind going into the
first grade.  So we started this early childhood development program.
And it was fascinating.  I learned so much from it.  Number one, we
were worried to death whether or not we could make school the best
part of their lives.  The logo was the thumbprint and that was told
to every child, "There is only one person in the world like you.  You
are unique.  You are precious.  You are special.  And in this school,
and because you live in America, you are going to be anything you
want to be." Now I sat around worrying, "Could we make school the
best part of their lives?" Murphy, it was the only good part of their
lives.  No contest.

   Murphy: Much has been said in the press about your wealth.  Do you
have a philosophy on money?

   Perot: Murphy, I have lived completely across the economic
spectrum.  Money is the most overrated thing in the world.  As I said
earlier, Margot and I are no happier today than we were the day we
came into Dallas with everything we owned in our car.  See, we had
one another then, we have one another and five great children.  Six
wonderful grandchildren.  Three great sons-in-law.  One great
daughter-in-law.  Nobody can be happier than we because of those
things.  The money doesn't bring the happiness.  Margot and I never
bought anything we couldn't pay cash for.  Now I say this, back in
those days, looking forward to it was really more fun than having it.
Once you had it, you kind of started thinking about something else.
But the anticipation of working, saving your money, looking forward
to it and getting it.  So you need enough money to take care of your
family, but beyond that, the only worthwhile use of having money
beyond that point, is to do constructive things for others.

   Murphy: Tell us about your family.

   Perot: Those are my greatest riches.  And no man could be more
blessed.  Margot is everybody's friend.  Certainly I adore her.
Everybody knows that.  She is a world-class mother.  I could best
summarize it by the fact when the children...our children gave a
Women's and Children's hospital in their mother's honor.  And I don't
cry easy, but tears came in my eyes when they made this statement at
the presentation, "It is our hope that every child born in this
hospital will have a mother just like ours.  And if every child did,
what a world we would have." Now Margot is a saint.  And then if you
look at our children, all five are just too good to be true.  Years
ago a person asked me, "How did it feel to be successful?" My
children were small and I said, "I won't know until my children are
grown.  But if they turn out to be good citizens with a deep concern
for other people and a willingness to do something about that
concern, then I will feel like a big success." They are all grown.
They're great and I now feel successful because of what they are.

   Murphy: Ross, as you look back on a life that's very enriching,
what are your happiest memories to this point?

   Perot: The happiest memories are my childhood with my parents,
meeting Margot, marrying Margot, the births of my five children,
nothing tops that.  The most memorable event was when all of the men
in EDS volunteered to go and rescue -- a 100 percent of the people I
asked.  There was nothing happy about that.  Getting back was happy.
That was one of the happy memories.
   The births of my grandchildren are enormously happy memories.
   Going to the rallies as the states turned in their petitions
is one memory I will carry with me the rest of my life.  Of
all of these wonderful people who were acting as owners of
the country again, who realize that although they didn't have the
money to buy influence, they had something more important.  They had
the vote.
   At the Churchill Dinner, when I received the Churchill
Award, I was asked if I considered myself a lion, like Churchill.
And I said, "No." And then they said, "Well, do you ever think of
yourself in any role?" And I never had.  And I thought for a minute.
I said, "Well, maybe." I said at one time I kind of wished that I
could a beautiful pearl, but then I looked in the mirror and I
realized that wasn't in the cards.  And then I said, maybe I can be
the oyster that makes the pearl. But that didn't work out either.
And years ago I decided that maybe my lot in life is to be the grain
of sand that irritated the oyster that made the pearl.

   Murphy: Ross, sorry that's all the time that we have for today.
We do thank you.  And we thank you for watching.  We'll have a chance
to meet Ross Perot's family in the days ahead.  We hope you'll keep
watching and mark your calendars. Election Day is Nov. 3rd.  Good
night to everybody.

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