********************************************************************* GOD AND IMMORTALITY -- A PERSPECTIVE FOR RATIONAL MIND ********************************************************************* SUMMARY The ancient sages were right: it does work and it is harmonious with science (as it always was). The new element here is an answer to: WHY and HOW does it work? Un/fortunately, the answer also confirms that to get all one has to give all. There are no shortcuts and no way to cheat. This game is mercilessly honest. --------------------------------------------------------------------- An earlier version of these notes was presented in a CIS discussion. FEEDBACK TO: FAX (617) 860-0344, Compuserve ID 75030,1044 --------------------------------------------------------------------- INTRODUCTION For several years I wondered what is the basis in (physical/biological) reality of the mystical gestalt of God and immortality (e.g. Gospel of Thomas, Jesus saying #1: ``And he [Jesus] said "Whoever finds the meaning of these sayings will not taste death."''). I knew with certainty (of a personal non-verbal gestalt) that it wasn't merely a hallucination, it is true and it means exactly what it says. But how can it be? Since I also knew that laws of nature must be harmonious (self-consistent) at all levels -- God doesn't (and cannot) cheat, and at our level it must play by (or in harmony with) the rules/patterns/laws of our level. So, whatever the (higher level) patterns of mystical gestalt might be, they can still only be another angle on the patterns/laws uncovered by natural sciences (arrangement similar to a crossword puzzle - physics, chemistry, biology, medicine, psychology,... fill in rows, mystical gestalt fills in columns, but the two sets of patterns must be perfectly harmonious [of course, we can always only know the partial patterns in either set, but to the extent they are known, they must agree]). Educated as a theoretical physicist I had to know not only that it (God, immortality) is possible, but also how is it possible, how does it and how could it work at all in terms of the other set of patterns (those of natural sciences). Since leaving the academic world I had worked (through my consulting firm) for several years on pattern recognition, neural networks, genetic algorithms etc, the topics which in mid-1980s became unified (along with some results of non-linear dynamics, far-from-equilibrium statistical physics, cellular automata, fractals, etc) into the new discipline, the complexity science. Interestingly, this science cuts across several other sciences, or in the crossword puzzle analogy, it's the 'vertical' pattern, just like the mystical gestalt. The common thread it follows across many different sciences is the realization that various adaptible complex systems appearing on all levels of complexity (from genetic engines to economies, societies and ecosystems) have a common mathematical core, they all utilize mathematically the same kind of natural computing scheme (the network with adaptible links under punishments/rewards), only implemented on different "hardware". This insight is already being utilizied in practice by new families of computer algorithms, immitating various complex adaptible systems (genetic engines, gene pools, neural networks, economies, social networks), and they all exhibit uncanny spontaneous intelligence (anticipatory ability). As I became aware of this 'perpendicular' relation of complexity science visa analytical sciences, it downed on me that the 'Intelligent Presence' of the mystical God-gestalt is precisely the vast intelligent network of intertwined social and eco webs (and beyond), identified by complexity science as the same kind of intelligent system as our brain, except that this one is a giant brain of unimaginable capacity and intelligence. From the human perspective, the dominant outer network is the social organism, that's the outer network where most in/out connections emanating from one human (the cell or neuron of the social organism) are hooked into. So, as a good approximation, one can identify the God of monotheistic religions, the God of people, with the social organism (indeed, the ancient texts about God deal mainly with the social organism, ethics, laws and history of social harmonization). The mind of God, or the holy spirit, corresponds thus to the "neural" process unfolding in the social & eco networks, in the same manner as person's mind corresponds to the neural process unfolding in the network of neurons, brain. From this angle, the ancient immortality recipes translate into the RECODING of the pattern of "self" (which starts out in the local & fragile network, brain) into the pattern of "Self" in the more durable outer network (social organism and beyond). This strategy for immortality of self-pattern is based on the ancient wisdom of not putting all eggs in one basket. Or, on even more primal wisdom already utilized by the brain itself to preserve memories and mind algorithms despite deaths of billions of neurons over person's lifetime -- brain spreads each memory over many links, each memory changes slightly the strengths of thousands of links (and each link is shared by thousands of memories). So no important memory or mental process is critically dependent on any one or few neurons. The LIFE, DEATH, LIFE section (below) follows up this basic and simple idea in more details, showing that the mystical gestalt of God and immortality (and relation to the ethics of love) was right on the target -- it is a tangible and 'speakable' reality, not a hallucination of a sensory deprived mind stuck alone in a desert few nights too long. The only "catch" is that it's not really a matter of internally believing or disbelieving any particular images or stories, complying with some ossified rites, reciting the right verses, etc, but it's a matter of consistently doing the things which appear quite at odds with the conventional wisdom about self-interest, it's not in talking the talk but in walking the walk. So, the "bad" news is that there are no shortcuts or clever tricks here, this game is mercilessly honest, and you truly get what you pay for, you reap as you have sown. To get all one has to give all. The "good" news is that it is real and it works, we do get the Lifeseed, the rich land to plant it in, the water to water it,... but it's up to each of us what we'll do with it. MYSTICAL GOD GESTALT & COMPLEXITY SCIENCE While there is a great diversity of religions and their prescriptions, the mystical insight (which is at the root of all religions) seems to have a common core across the cultures, continents and millenia -- the existence of an intelligent live presence. In recent years science (complexity science) has arrived to realization that there actually is an intelligent live presence, a kind of higher lifeform on Earth. Although the complexity science is a new discipline, its name and present scope emerging only in 1980s, many of its results were scattered among mathematics, physics, biology, computer science, economy for decades (some going back to 19th century). The crystallization seed for the new discipline was the insight that there is a common core shared by great variety of complex systems, such as genetic engines, gene pools, ecosystems, immune systems, brains, economies, societies, natural languages, webs of scientific theories, cultures,... The common core is the network structure, with nodes interconnected via _adaptible_ links, where the links change in response to the punishments and rewards acting on the system. Complexity science shows that such systems spontaneously develop anticipatory behaviours, they internally model their environment, run these models 'in their head', as it were, in order to anticipate the responses of their actions and select the optimal one (which tries to minimize punishments, maximize rewards), like a chess player looking several moves ahead to pick the best one. This property is purely a mathematical result for these kind of networks, independent of what links or nodes are made of, of what kind of messages/items are passing through the links, what are the punishments & rewards. Computer science has been using for several decades artificial neural networks, a simplified immitation of brain, as a powerful tool for difficult optimization and pattern recognition problems. That seemed an obvious choice. But in recent years the genetic algorithms (immitating genetic engines & gene pools) and Holland classifier (immitating society of traders, simplified economy) have proven equally powerful in solving same kind of problems. In brain the nodes are neurons, linked by dendrites, axons and synapses which carry electric charges and neuro-transmitters. In genetic engine the nodes are nucleotides and links are implemented as diffusion carrying enzymes, proteins, nucleic and amino acids,... The gene pools are networks which link genetic engines as sub-nets through links of sexual reproduction, genetic crossover. Human societies contain many types of nodes (e.g. humans, machines, animals) richly interconnected through all types of adaptible links in all types of communications, relations, law, trade, production,... passing words of natural and artificial languages, information (pictures, figures etc), goods, services, money... But regardless of the particular kind of "hardware" implementing the links, nodes and punishments/rewards, all such systems act as intelligent/anticipatory creatures. Looking at the overall system, it consists of innumerable intelligent networks (in material and conceptual/symbolic domains), nesting, overlapping, intertwining, permeating each other, all unfolding simultaneously, sharing cells and motions with each other, each in relentless pursuit of its own happiness, continuously harmonizing with all others permeating it -- a picture similar to an infinitely dimensional crossword puzzle, creating and solving itself in all directions at once, through infinitude of busy motions from the tiniest to the largest, shuffling all letters in blocks of all sizes, in all places, all at once. The human societies, which are the most advanced kind of intelligent networks (the most powerful natural computers) on Earth, are a new kind of intelligent higher lifeform (with humans as its cells), social organism, which has evolved on Earth within last ten millenia, and is still evolving at an exponential pace, already million times faster than genetically evolving lifeforms (such as humans and other less complex ones). The evolutionary quantum leap to social organisms parallels the earlier quantum leap to multicellular organisms which lead to the explosion of speciation and complexification. Most people perceive the large motions of the social organism as some kind of blind natural forces, on par with winds, river flows, forest fires, or as pendulums and machinery run by the 'leaders' (an industrial age metaphor). The subtle purposes and patterns of these motions, glimpsed at in a flash of gestalt, are attributed to gods or God, invisible hand, dialectics of class struggle, morphogenetic fields,... Now we know they are of the same kind of purposes and patterns as those produced by our brains, except that this brain is billions times larger and unimaginably more powerful (also, the social organisms are only the subnets of the wider ecosystem networks, which in turn are subnets of biosphere). The natural question is, if this brain is the same intelligent presence that gestalt of mystics calls God -- how do death, Kingdom of God (or equivalent), immortality of soul, enlightenment,... fit into this perspective. Well, there is no Paradise and Hell after death, only 'to be or not to be', and although the Gate can be crossed (via the formula best expressed by Zen as 'All is One, One is None, None is All'), getting into 'to be' is a bit harder and more rare than commonly believed,... but that is the subject of the main section: LIFE, DEATH, LIFE. For those intrigued by complexity science, here are few titles I enjoyed reading: 1) "Complexity - The emerging science at the edge of order and chaos" by M.M. Waldrop, Simon & Schuster 1992 ISBN 0-671-7689-5 (the best popular intro into the new field [science of Complexity] by a physicist, explores also implications for economy, biology, computer science) 2) "Complexity - Life at the edge of chaos" by R.Lewin Macmillan Pub.Co., 1992, ISBN 0-02-570485-0 (nice intro into complexity science, mainly from biology angle; similar to, but a bit shallower than Waldrop's book) 3) "The Origins Of Order" by Stuart Kauffman Oxford University Press, 1993, ISBN 0-19-507951-5 (More technical intro into science of complexity with applications to origin of life, evolution, mathematics) 4) "Complexity, Entropy and the Physics of Information" The proceedings of the 1989 workshop on Complexity. Addison-Wesley, 1990, ISBN 0-201-51506-7 (fascinating collections of papers by leading scientists from around the world) 5) "The Quark and the Jaguar" by Murray Gell-Mann W.H.Freeman & Co., 1994, ISBN 0-7167-2581-9 (popular intro into complexity science, covers wide range of implications, from elementary particle physics to societies; best if read after Waldrop's book above, since Gell-Mann assumes readers' knowledge of concepts explained at great length in the Waldrop's book.) ILLUSTRATION FOR AN INTELLIGENT NETWORK > can you simplify it at all... Let's look a specific example, a network which can learn to recognize letters. The network consists of few hundreds cells. The cells are very simple: each cell has few dozens of input lines and few dozens of output lines. When the cell receives signals/pulses (e.g. electric pulses) on some of its inputs, it responds by sending pulses to all its outputs if the total number of pulses received is greater than half of total number of input lines. So, this works like voting - if the number of votes for 'pulse' (as opposed for 'quiet') is above half, it sends out a 'pulse', otherwise it sends out 'quiet'. Important feature of the lines carrying the pulses is ADAPTABILITY - the link strength (or the resistance of the lines) is adjustible so they can be set to pass through anywhere from the full strength of the pulse to the complete cutoff (no pulse goes through). So the network will look like a web of light bulbs interconnected via wires, and each wire carrying a light-dimmer knob which can be tweaked continuously from the complete dark to the full brightness. When cells 'count their votes' for ON or OFF, they use the NET VALUE of the pulses (resulting after the attenuation), thus some inputs are 100% on (value 1.00), some 35% on (value 0.35), etc. So, it's like voting by shouting, where not only the content of the vote counts, but also the loudness of the voter. The network can be initially connected completely randomly, but in practical applictains one often uses layered structure (they're the simplest to analyze). In the picture below the signals propagate UP, from the cells in A layer to the cells in Z layer: 0 1 0 1 1 <- The answer pattern (output of Z cells) Z Z Z Z Z <- Z-cells are the "result" layer Y Y Y Y Y Y ........... <- other layers C C C C C C B B B B B B B <- layer of B-cells A A A A A A A A <- layer of A-cells * * * - * - - * <- Light dots (from scanner) Each A-cell receives ON or OFF signal from a light sensor (e.g. a page scanner), and sends a pulse (if light dot is ON) to few dozen of B-cells. The connections (and their strengths or resistances) from the A-cell to its pulse destination B-cells are chosen randomly, so that each B-cell will typically receive inputs of different strengths from dozens of different A-cells. Each B-cell will count the votes (accounting also for their strengths) it gets from A-cells, and send the outcome to dozens of C-cells. Similarly, each C-cell will count the net votes received from dozens of B cells and send the outcome up the ladder to D-cells, ...etc. Finally, when the voting wave reaches Z-cells, they only count the net incoming vote and each Z-cell posts its outcome as 0 (off) and 1 (on), which some external program reads as the result-pattern. With 5 Z-cells in the picture there are at most 32 result-patterns (i.e. 2^5=32 combinations of five 0's and 1's: 00000, 00001, 00010, ... 11111), so 32 different letters and punctuation signs can be recognized. The external program (which runs the simulation) will, using some convention, require that, say, letter 'a' (on the scanner) produce result-pattern (on Z-cells) 00000, letter 'b' to produce 00001 on Z-cells, etc. Since the cells are initially connected randomly, when a pattern of light/dark dots for letter 'x' is presented to A-cells, and the signals finally reach Z-cells, there will be some random result-pattern of 0's and 1's on the Z-cells, say 01011, and not the required one, say, 11000 designated as a code for letter 'x'. Now comes the LEARNING part: the leftmost Z-cell has produced 0, but the 'correct' answer was 1. To correct this, the Z-cell will look back at the votes from the Y-cells which advised it, and for all those Y-cells which had signalled it "vote 0" (which was the 'wrong' advice) it will DECREASE SLIGHTLY the link strength. For all the Y cells which had sent it something in between 0 and 1 (due to attenuation/resistance of the links), the Z cell will decrease the links proportionately to the error (e.g. for Y-cells which had sent it 0.25, the link strength will be decreased, but not as much as for 0 vote, since the error is now 0.75, not 1.00; and for Y-cells which had sent it 1, i.e. no error, there will be no change of the link strength, i.e. don't fix if it ain't broken). So, the Z-cell will reward and punish the Y-cells by decreasing their link strengths proportionately to how "wrong" (relative to Z-cell's target output value) they were. Similarly the Y-cells will propagate their punishments/rewards down to X-cells which had advised them, proportionately to how "wrong" the X-cells were. But since each Y-cell had sent its output signals (advice) to many Z-cells, the Y-cells don't have a sharp target output value (such as 0 or 1, as Z-cells do), but rather their target value is some averaged value between 0 and 1 (a weighted average from target values of Z-cells they had sent signals to). After X-cells receive their punishments & rewards from Y cells, they proceed the same way, punishing and rewarding their advisors (W-cells) proportionately to how wrong W-cells were, and so on, until the punishment-reward wave reaches the A-cells, where it stops. So the picture of one learning pass looks like this: a pattern of light & dark dots for some letter 'x' is presented to the layer of A-cells, then a wave of votes (signals) propagates upward, from A to Z, then the wave of punishments & rewards bounces back, propagating from Z to A. To have the network learn all letters one has to present to A-cell layer sequentially dot patterns for 'a', 'b',...'z', then if necessary the whole series is repeated several times. Namely, by the time the dimmer-knob tweaking is done for the last dot pattern (e.g. image 'z') in the series, the cummulative changes in link strengths may have wiped out the results of the knob tweaking for the first pattern (e.g. image 'a') in the series. This is why the knobs are tweaked very lightly (i.e. the punishments-rewards are as gentle as possible). And as the learning cycles continue, the errors decrease, thus the level of dimmer-knob tweaking decreases (since it is proportionate to the magnitude of errors), and we're done when an entire pass went on without a need to tweak a single knob. Or, in the wave-picture, the bouncing wave going up and down will smooth out the sharp rocks on the bottom. The knowledge the network has acquired is thus stored in the link strengths. But although there is no single link which stores letter 'a', and the knowlede is spread out, there is a STRUCTURE to this knowledge: As network learns, one first notices that some cells in the lower layers (e.g. B,C) SPECIALIZE -- they respond (activate strongly) to specific features in the dot patterns presented to the A-layer, e.g. some may become active if there is a horizontal line in the dot pattern, some trigger on vertical lines, some on curved, some on horizontal lines at the top of dot rectangle, some at the bottom, etc. With speech recognition networks one can see cells specializing in phonems. In social networks one can also see the specialization at all levels and in all human activities. The specialization means that the network is in effect ANALYZING the patterns from its environment by breaking them into simpler fragments, the building blocks. But since each specialist-cell feeds its output to many cells in the next layer up, and since each higher level cell receives many fragment-signals from the lower level specialists, the higher level cells will start SPECIALIZING IN COMBINATIONS OF ELEMENTARY FRAGMENTS (just as the lower level specializes in the special combinations of their inputs, the light/dark dots). For example, some middle-level cells will become active if there is one horizontal line at the top (received from one of horizontal line specialists) and one vertical line in the middle (like letter T). In speech recognition networks on sees higher level specialists combining phonems into common word fragments. In social networks one can see the same kind of process everywhere, e.g. in science biologist combining results, instruments, techniques from chemists, physicists, mathematicians, computer scientists, other biologists; or in manufacturing a computer maker combining parts from chip, chasis, keyboard, monitor,... makers. Or pick any object around you, say, a tootpaste, read all the labels, check all materials involved -- there are probably hundreds or thousands of people down the chain linked to you via that toothpaste, and your punishments-rewards (money you paid for it) has been spread out down that web, a bit to each of them. As you go up the layers, the cells will specialize in higher and higher level patterns, made up of various combinations of lower level patterns. In other words, the lower layers act as ANALYZERS of the environment, they break it apart into building blocks, and the higher layers act as SYNTHESIZERS, putting together the building blocks into the SCALED MODELS of the environment. If you look at the speech recognition network, where the temporal patterns are recognized, the synthesizers are putting together the building blocks (phonems) into various temporal sequences, i.e. they are creating scale models from the building blocks, and running them in their head (unfolding in time), as it were, in order to select the one which works "best" (relative to whatever punishments/rewards they're exposed to). In a network learning to play chess, the synthesizers will combine several moves, looking ahead for the "best" sequence. Although for concreteness sake, I had described a highly structured network (resembling a bit some government agency), the same behaviours (learning, specialization, analysis, synthesis, model creation & running, look ahead, etc) hold for great variety of network structures, link updating procedures, signal propagation and "voting" rules. More importantly, the mathematics (& simulations) used to prove such capabilities of the network, does in no way depend on what are the links or nodes made of, what are the things passing through the network links, what are the punishments/rewards. So, these network properties are quite general -- they follow purely mathematically, as soon as one can identify that the network has adaptabile links, the nodes receiving inputs and producing outputs based on inputs (via some voting/weighing-like function) and punishments & rewards affecting the links. So, it is not necessary at all to have literal neurons hooked up into a network, such as brain, to have a network give rise to intelligent processes, such as analyzing patterns in their environment, breaking them internally into building blocks, hooking together these blooks into the scaled models of the environment (including the network itself, i.e. there is the ego-actor as a part of the model), running (internally) these models in order to look ahead and select the optimal actions for the ego-actor based on predicted outcomes. We tend to notice such processes only in our own network, brain, since we can introspect them directly, but the same kind of processes go on in innumerable other networks, such as genetic engines, immune systems, gene pools, social organizations, news media, industries, sciences, economies, government agencies, political movements, social organism as whole, wider ecosystems (including social organisms), etc. They are all intelligent networks (adaptible complex systems) with the general features described above, only implemented on different "hardrware", with their intelligence attuned to different perspective of the "environment" (different from the sensory perspective of human brain & senses). Human brain tends to exaggerate dominance of its form of intelligence compared to others around and within human organism, and it gets away with it since it's job is to form the words and sentences to "explain" and communicate what's going on (like a spin doctor evaluating a TV debate of his candidate). The AIDS epidemic shows quite clearly that there is another intelligent network within us, the immune system, which all of our brains and technology put together can't quite match in its specialty - outwitting the gene pools (another intelligent network) of microbes around us. Working quietly in the background, the immune network learns vast numbers of microbe patterns over persons lifetime, and destroys the intruders efficiently and wisely without provoking the backlash in the microbe gene pools. The quicker, but shallower network, brain, in the meantime had discovered antibiotics and within decades had managed, with its hasty arrogant actions, to spur the microbe gene pools into the high speed crunch, and they're now outwitting the scientific and farmaceutical behemoths, and antibiotics are rendered useless one ofter the other (one scientist said recently in Time magazine that he has concluded that microbes are smarter than us). If immune network had been as dumb and short-sighted, the microbes would have wiped us out long time ago. And when the immune network fails (goes senile, as it were), as in AIDS, they do wipe us out, despite all of our arrogant high tech medicine. OTOH, the intelligence of the immune network, without any help from the high tech brain-centric medicine, has somehow pulled us through for hundreds of millenia of microbe assaults (while the high tech medicine, left to its arrogant self, can't pull through 1 life worth against the microbe assaults on an AIDS patient). LANGUAGES -- INTELLIGENT BEINGS So, the intelligent networks are by no means restricted to the brain. More interestingly, they are also not restricted to networks made up of 'matter'. The math demonstrating their properties doesn't care what are the network nodes and links made of. Thus the abstract worlds of natural and artificial languages, cultures, conceptual structures of sciences, religions, etc are intelligent networks in their own abstract worlds, they learn, they model and anticipate, just as brain or other 'matter' networks do. For example, a natural language is a vast network of words, phrases, quotations, concepts, with huge number of adaptible links (semantic, stylistic, historical, grammatical, etc), exposed to continuous stream of punishments and rewards (based on how well it serves the communication, writing, speaking, creativity, etc). And over millenia the natural languages have evolved into very smart networks. For example, you may be toying with some ideas in your head for hours, then you decide to write them down, and as you write, one thing leads to another, words and phrases associate with others, and, as if by magic, you end up with a wisdom you never knew was in you. You have in fact tapped into the wisdom and intelligence encoded implicitly into the language network (encoded in its vast web of constanly adapting links, which you absorbed as you learned the language, but without being aware of the content of its implicit wisdom and intelligence; these come to life most strongly in writing since writing quiets down the noise and limitations of the short term memory trying to cope with forming the sentences [when speaking or thinking without writing], and the subtle semantic links can then reverbrate in full strength and over longer span of text, awakening thus the intelligent giant of the language network). Artificial langauges of sciences are even more subject to sharp competitive pressures (punishments & rewards), and have accumulated extremely powerful creative intelligence. Some of greatest discoveries in science come from this intelligence. For example, the electromagnetic waves were discovered when Maxwell used particular form of differential equations to express the previously known laws of electromagnetism, and in that particular format, guided by purely aesthetic reasons, he felt the equation would look nicer, more symmetrical, if there was an extra term. So he added the prettifying term, and when he worked out the consequences of the addition, it was an electromagnetic wave. Similarly, mathematicians stumbled into an odd feature of Maxwell's equations - when you rewrite them by substituting original variable letters X1,Y1..., with particular odd looking expression of some new variable letters X2,Y2,... then you expand it all, then collect the new labels into compact form, and the equations look the same in the new labels (X2,Y2,...) as those in the old labels (X1,Y1,...). That oddity (Lorentz transformations) lingered for several decades until Einstein explained that this "lingustic" oddity is in fact the theory of relativity. This kind of magic wisdom, comming seemingly out of nowhere, has happened time after time, and a physicist Eugene Wigner got so puzzled by it (after it sprung its intelligence in his discovery which earned him Nobel prize) that he wrote a paper about this strange phenomenon, and he gave it a name: the UNREASONABLE EFFECTIVNESS of mathematics. Glancing at the bigger picture -- there innumerable intelligent networks, on all scales, in all domains, nesting, overlapping and permeating each other, unfolding through myriad of little motions, each motion serving many networks simultaneously, while each net is pursuing its own happiness (intelligently optimizing the motions relative to its rewards & punishments), and harmonizing the shared motions with all other nets permeating it in pursuit of their own happiness. Therefore asking for The Purpose and The Cause of any little motion is meaningless, since each serves numerous intelligent networks, each is a part of many anticipatory/intelligent processes each unfolding purposefully toward their own anticipated goals, and each motion is a part of many different patterns/laws each defining its own causes and effects (e.g. is bee heading toward the flower to collect the nectar, or is the flower attracting the bee to pollinate it, or is it the bee cells interacting by electro-chemical processes, or is it just a pile of atoms following Schroedinger equation... etc). Similarly, asking "who is in charge here," say, is it human brain (human will, mind) or is it the brain (will, mind) of social organism (the approximate God of monotheism) is as meaningless as asking who is in charge of you, is it your will and mind, or is it the electro-chemical processes of your cells. ----- Returning now briefly to the thesis of this thread -- the pattern of 'self' (say, person's mind, will, affection) get initially encoded into a single fragale network, brain, which lasts few decades, then perishes, taking with it the precious 'self'. But this fragale network is a subnet of a vast outer network, the social organism (and beyond), and it is attached to the outer network via tens of thousands of links. So, the possibility I suggested is to recode the live 'self' pattern from the fragile network, brain, into the live 'Self' pattern in the outer network, social organism. The conventional wisdom of self-interest conditions all of us to direct most of our actions toward pleasing the biological network in which the 'self' pattern originated. Thus we fail to develop sufficient feedback with the outer network to grow the Self. The ancient immortality recipe, the ethics of unconditional love, is precisely the method for developing this feedback needed to recode the mortal 'self' pattern into the immortal 'Self' pattern (see LIFE, DEATH, LIFE section for more). > ...where do we plug in Chaos theory? The chaos plays important role in the complexity science (the two books among those I listed (in the intro) have "chaos" in the title). At the moment it is only an empirical observation that the complexification occurs at the very edge between chaos and order. This edge is a point of phase transition, like the point (on temperature scale) of ice melting into water. (In complexity science the scale isn't the temperature but the average probability [per some unit of time] that a building block in a complex system will change its state during the time unit; this parameter is called lambda patrameter, e.g. lambda=0 means totally frozen system, lambda=1.00 means totally chaotic system; for 1-dimensional 2-state cellular automata the lambda=0.273 [i.e. odds of change per time step are 27.3 percent] is the edge of chaos and order, and at that lambda the systems start evolving intelligence.) Intuitively this is plausible since on the 'ice' (order) side of the edge, the system is frozen out and very few new things are tried out to move complexity forward, and on the water/chaos side, too many new things are tried out to allow any created structure to stick around long enough so the more complex things could build upon the things built so far. At the very edge the new structures are created and destroyed on all scales. An interesting mathematical result for these systems (at the point of phase transition) is self-similarity, which is also reflected in a common intuition that nature seems to enjoy reusing its tricks on different levels of complexity. Another mathematical property of the systems at the edge of order and chaos is the presence of power laws, such as Zipf law for natural languages and many other complex systems (e.g. if you rank words by frequency of usage, then the usage frequency of the k-th word on the list will be approximately proportional to 1/k, i.e. the top ranking word will be used twice as often as the second ranking, three times as often as the third ranking,... etc; or similarly, if you rank cities by size, then the population in k-th city will be proportional to 1/k). This provides a useful quantitative criteria for testing various systems for being at the edge of order and chaos, and therefore for systems undergoing spontaneous complexification (for systems becoming more intelligent, anticipatory etc). -------------------------------------------------------------------- LIFE, DEATH, LIFE -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Of course, consciousness makes inspiration possible, but I > am not unduly impressed by consciousness in and of itself... > > However, I agree with your point that there -seems- to be a > social organism. Certainly this can be discussed in > behavioral terms, I'm not sure if it has a physiological > basis (a la slime mold). Again, the social aspects are > interesting, but for me not very inspiring. As long as one looks at the two (self and the social organism) and their relations within the safe, albeit shallow, waters of conventional wisdom ("behavioral terms", "social aspect" etc), one will catch only the small fish. The (inner) self of conventional wisdom (e.g. consciousness, or mind, affection, will, or any other verbal schemata) rests on our biologically inherited neural network, brain, and our body. We draw the conventional boundaries of our (biological) self from our birth on, as we extend our will from eyes and mouth, down through neck, arms and the rest of our body. That phase goes fairly quickly (although, looking at a child learning to walk, not without hard struggle). But as we reach our biologically connected boundaries, we quickly learn that extending our will and senses beyond is much harder, others simply won't do what one wills. As result of the increased resistance to our expanding self we create an internal model of reality consisting of self (the obedient, easily accessible, part limited by our biologically inherited network) and others (the disobedient, hard to access, part/the outer network/social organism, interacting with the obedient part via language, physical actions, exchange of goods, services, money, etc). Most people never outgrow that model and their entire life effort is centered on gratifying the obedient part of the network, self. They are like a child who found that extending its will to legs is much too hard and painful experience, and so it decided that it doesn't really need to learn to walk, after all food and toys seem to come to it anyway, so what's the problem. Luckily for the child it doesn't get to choose; the ancient wisdom of the built in biological program drives it to keep trying, falling, crying, trying again and so it eventually learns to extend its will to its legs, mastering at last its biologically connected domain. As springs and Christmases go by, we realize one evening, perhaps after inadvertently letting our glance rest on our dust covered high school trophies for few seconds too long, or while satisfying an inexplicable sudden urge to dig out from basement the faded photo album of our childhood, that the obedient part, the all-imporant priceless self, jealously protected, rewarded and pleased with the best we can offer all these years, isn't going to be obedient to our will for much longer, and from all that science and common sense tell us, myths and fairy-tales notwithstanding, all will be gone, and there is nothing beyond the Gate but a dark horrifying nothingness. After all that investment of the best I can do, after all the gifts brought to its insatiable altar, the ungrateful treacherous self will simply dissolve on me, perishing into the horrifying void, for ever. Maybe I ought to have my body frozen into a liquid nitrogen, and some day science may figure a way to revive me? But, science also tells me that the water crystals will rip apart all my cells, all my neurons and memories will be destroyed, and the priceless self with them. It's almost better getting cremated and have my ashes scattered over woods and meadows to feed the grass, and cows will eat the grass, and they will make milk from the grass, and children will drink the milk, and there will be few of my atoms in there, in these kids as they joyfully play and grow. But that still ain't it. I've probably got now in me few atoms of Democritus and I don't really think that does any good to poor old Democritus. Also, most of my "own" atoms now are not the same atoms which made 'me' ten years ago, and I'm still the same self. So atoms won't do much for getting a piece of self through the Gate. The self is encoded in the neurons, as live/active memories and action algorithms we accumulate over years. Curiously, thousands of your neurons have died since this morning, several while you're reading this sentence, and yet the self seems to go on. You don't loose a chunk of self as hundreds of millions of neurons die, you don't forget self, it actually seems to grow and get richer as years go by. The primeval wisdom built into your brain design, which allows your core memories and mind algorithms, the self, to survive the natural death of billions of your neurons over lifetime, is a spreading of each memory over thousands of neural links, with no single or several links being critical for that memory, i.e. it's the ancient wisdom of not putting all the eggs in one basket. Each memory is encoded by gentle modifications of thousands or millions of neural links (their strengths), and any link is modified by thousands of memories (a scheme analogous to hologram). And the more some memory is spread out, the more resistant it is to any random cell death or localized or random damage. The self is thus fairly safe. Well, until the Gate. Since however widely we spread the self within our biologically inherited network, however many neuron links we use for its most valued core, none of them will get through the Gate, all our cells, including all our neurons, die shortly after we die, and the self, however wisely encoded into our neural links, will perish into the void. Thus the cause of the ultimate fragility of conventional self when it reaches the Gate is the fact that it is entirely encoded in a single fragile network, the biologically inherited network, brain, which cannot pass through the Gate. But we know (from complexity science) that there is a vast, intelligent, outer network around us, the social organism (and beyond), using the same kind of natural computing machinery as our brain, but of unimaginably greater capacity and natural computing power than our brain, and more importantly in the context of the biological Gate, of much _greater durability_ than our brain and our body. So, the strategy for getting the self beyond the Gate of our biological organism is the same one the self already uses to persist in face of deaths of billions of neurons which carry it, the old eggs in the basket trick -- the self must be spread out beyond the particular biological network (brain & body) in which it started, it must be ENCODED INTO THE VAST OUTER NETWORK, the social organism (and, of course, into the outer networks beyond the single social organism, human race, ecosystem, ...etc). But how does one encode self into the outer network? Has anyone done it? Yes, but before rushing into "how to" (the 1 minute guide to immortality), let's step back and glance at the bigger picture. Just as the genetic network of a single fertilized egg unfolds its implicit pattern into the order of a more complex multicellular network, as a growing embryo rooted into and nurtured by the mother's womb, entirely dependent on it, but ultimately having to leave the womb, passing painfully through the Gate where its lifeline, the umbilical cord, will be cut off -- so does the "fertilized" (enlightened) self unfold its implicit pattern and grow, spreading out its pattern into the order of the social organism, encoding itself into the outer network as Self, while its lifeline stays rooted in the nurturing womb (the individual brain & body). But eventually, the Self (the pattern in the outer network) must leave the womb, step into the dark void, then the light of the Gate is seen (NDE witnesses describe it as light at the end of a tunnel), but shortly thereafter the lifeline to the womb is cut off (the cellular death of the brain), the Gate is crossed irreversibly and the Self is born. The only thing which survives past the Second Gate of Light (the physical death) is the Self, which is the pattern unfolded from the self (self is the order/pattern encoded in the biological network, brain) into the outer network of the social organism (and beyond). The process producing the "fertilized" self (the mystical enlightenment) has the same ecstatic attraction built in as the more familiar process leading to the fertilization of an egg (although, reportedly, the mystical ecstasy vs sexual ecstasy is like sexual ecstasy vs chocolate ecstasy). That's the carrot kept in front of the donkey, to get it to go and do what is needed, to get it across the uphill road (to drive the self out of its biological boundaries). And in both cases, there is the whole little game and ritual leading to it, competition, struggle, selection, disappointments and suffering to find just the right life mate; we go through similar games, selection, suffering, etc, to find just the right formula for immortality. And just as most eggs never get fertilized (or, similarly, as most species get extinct), and are doomed to perish forever in pains of ignoble death at the First Gate (literally), most selves never get enlightened, and are doomed to perish forever in an utmost horror as they step across the Second Gate dissolving into the total and eternal void (after the light show of visual neurons dying en masse is over, the spectacle of NDE is finito, and the rising sea of dark ice mercilessly closes in around the last tiny island, with the shivering core of self burning the last remaining spark, in a last-ditch scramble toward the only high point of the island, and having just enough time to Realize and attempt The Scream into the echoless deaf void). What the 'self' has Realized, as the sea of dark ice closed in, is that nothing, not a bit, of 'self' will get through, and what will go on is the tiny ripple outside, left there inadvertently, as a side-effect of 'self' pursuing its own gratification. How it wishes now it had nurtured that ripple, that seed of eternal life. But the time is up, and the seed neglected on the stony ground cannot be reached any more, and it will turn to dust. Isn't this 'ripple' or 'seed' same thing as "legacy" one leaves behind? No. The "legacy" won't help, "legacy" is not you. What one wants is the true live self somehow to get through, to see somehow the body and all its cells die, and still continue. That is what the promise of religion is, not some abstract memory or gratitude of others about the deceased. The task is to somehow transfer the coherence (self) present in the localized network (brain) into the coherence (Self) of the outer network (social organism). As the Self pattern unfolds into the outer network according to its nature and the guidance from self, the self has at each stage to dissolve into It completely, without any reservation without anything held back. The tiniest crack of separation between self and Self will turn the Self into "other", into "legacy", entity distinct from "me". One has to give all to get all. Naturally, no one is required to be perfect. One can learn from a child expanding self to legs as it learns to walk - it does it with all its little heart, it tries and fails, and hurts and cries, but doesn't give up. The errors and the hurt are as much the part of the scheme as are the successes and the joy. The networks learn through punishments and rewards, the better the feedback, the better they learn. The Self has to grow 'organically' from self, not through forced artificial schemes of 'how things ought to be'. The self doesn't know what is it like to be Self in the next phase of its unfolding, just as child doesn't know what is it like to walk, until it walks. The self is like a genetic engine, operating at the level of chemical reactions, while the Self is the shape of the embryo. Although one has to use all foresight one has, all wisdom and knowledge passed down to us from the sages of old, the process is far too complex (relative to our brain) for any final shape/outer design of Self to be imposed upfront. The key is the efficient feedback and self-correction. Child doesn't sit and think upfront how the walking ought to work, but _opens up_ and goes for it in _earnest_, the best it knows how, now, and corrects the actions & strategy as it receives the feedbacks. The self knows no more of what the ultimate Self will be like, than child knows what it will be like as a grown-up. Since Self will have to encompass many individuals beyond the original 'self', the feedbacks to all its cells must be nurtured. And since the original 'self' will be expanding without reserve into the growing Self, the self has to feel equally all the cells of Self. The dissolved 'self' must feel any pain or pleasure of all humans participating in Self (whatever its current domain is) equally, the best that all its senses and all its nerves and all its sympathy can offer, no preference must be given to the pain & pleasure of the originating human. The self cannot allow a gap to develop with Self, it must be It throughout and completely. The other humans included in the unfolding Self may not know of or see the subtle pattern enfolding them and changing them gently, they need not return any of what they are receiving, they may take any advantage of the giver, the giver does not expect or ask anything from them in return, it gives all in order to be all. As the Self unfolds and expands and gradually acquires affection, mind and will of its own, the self must _shed_ commensurately, but without any holdovers, their biological equivalents (which the self had brought into the process), and _open to receive_ the new ones without reservation. Thus the guidance of the unfolding of Self by the (biologically/neurally rooted) compassion, mind and will of the original self gradually fades away as the Self acquires the Lifeforce of the new kind. Of course, the lower level guidance of the originating biological organism continues to be serviced mainly by its original neural network (for their duration as a coherent biological structure). This all may sound cold and harsh to the conventional wisdom, "But you wake up in the morning and the world seems so beautiful you can hardly stand it" (as one post-enlightenment Zen practitioner described the process). Looking for analogy among more familiar experiences, one can liken how the 'self' feels as it dissolves into its unfolding Self to the euphoria which overcomes one when his/her first child is born (with similar gradation as in the comparison between the ecstasy of mystical enlightenment, the fertilization of "self", and the sexual ecstasy, as mentioned in msg #1; both types of processes are forms of immortalizing, one of genes, another of self). There is no single best recipe for everyone or for all of the time. Many mystical systems have evolved, usually carrying one through the enlightenment (done often in isolation from the social organism), after which one returns to the organism and does what one has to do, guided by the built in algorithms (just as pregnancy procedes by itself, while courting follows variety of socially/culturally/personally dependent rituals). Love thy enemies, although a necessary milestone, may not be the best starting point for the initial unfolding of Self. Starting with ones children and spouse, then parents, siblings, friends, colleagues,... might be a more natural progression. Important things are child-like openness to Self and all experiences it brings, readiness of self to acknowledge its errors and fallability, flexibility and earnestness in trying and exploring the new ways, new things, building & accepting the feedbacks (listening and helping others with as much interest and sincerity as for oneself, perceiving and sharing their joy and sadness as ones own, thinking of self and feeling self in third person helps in setting all within the web of Self on equal level,... etc). One is not trying to impose or force in any way other people to change their ways. Rather one is imperceptibly, almost inadvertently, nudging at the edges of Self by mere example of actions of self. Any subtle change of others should be entirely their own wish, they ought to feel it and think it as a preferrable change, filling their need and in accordance with their nature. The Self enfolds people (and other organisms) by accepting them, the "good" and the "bad", since each is needed for a balanced, hardy live being; Self conquers by submitting to the nature of things. The self must accept and always be what Self is, as Self gradually sheds away its dependence on the originating biological network and gains the full Lifeforce. Since only the Self, Its Mind and Its Body, will effortlessly flow past the Gate (of one of its cells). And some day, as Self matures, one of its cells will receive its distilled 'genetic' essence, the one its wise little originator had encoded into it long ago, putting in all of his little heart and mind, and the human being will awaken, as if it had slept for all these centuries, now feeling rested and full of life, and then some day it, too, will recall the Gate ahead... QUESTIONS & CLARIFICATIONS > 3) it is based on absolutes. I.e., I must accept it, I must > view the world a certain way, or forfeit all. There is no ideology or philosophy in what I'm saying. Any system of enlightenment is fine, the event of mystical enlightenment (gestalt of One) being a starting point for the process of recoding the mortal self of the inner network into the immortal Self of the outer network. I am only suggesting the underlying natural basis, the natural mechanism by which various mystical/religious paths to immortality could actually deliver on their promise. The ethical implications here are not based on some higher principles, ten commandments, or what someone very important said, or any such. They are simply necessitated by the constraints of the distributed nature of Self and the nature of its building blocks (individual humans). If one were to try to force on others some pattern originating from some powerful 'self', some kind of cult of personality, that does not create a live Self being, but a dead machine, a legacy, "other" which is not "me". The magic of life is in those enfolded by the Self doing what they wish to do, what they find good to them, filling what they need, so that Self can truly grow, learn, adapt to any new situations, persist and propagate. The Self must be a full network with adaptible, soft links, adapting on their own, now and forever, in order to learn and be alive like the original fragile network (brain) which gave it rise. No fixed scheme, much less some cult of personality imposing fixed human image onto others, can be a live network. Such schemes are like wax figures, they seem like alive, but only so for a short glance. This has nothing to do with my notions of "good" or "bad", or some philosophy, it's simply a matter of what does it take to make a network be an adaptible, intelligent, live being. What I am saying is of the same nature as someone telling you what does it take to grow wheat, based on experiences of many who grew the wheat before, and say, explaining that tugging the wheat up by force won't make it grow faster or bigger (analog to forcing others to fit your pattern), it will only harm it or kill it; or, say, that separating the wheat from the ground will probably kill it (analog to separating self from Self, failing to dissolve self into Self, i.e. rejecting Self because self doesn't like some of Self being's features),... etc. > This certainly isn't very conducive to questioning, > postulating and skepticism, i.e., the scientific way. For > example, the following statements presume absolute knowledge: > >> The tiniest crack of separation between self and Self will >> turn the Self into "other", into "legacy", entity distinct >> from "me". One has to give all to get all. >> ... >> The self cannot allow a gap to develop with Self, it must >> be It throughout and completely. That's an ancient wisdom about this technique, e.g. the famous Zen master Seng Ts'an expressed it as: "Make a hairsbreadth difference, And heaven and earth are set apart." Or Jesus (Mat 6:24) "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." I did add, though, right after that paragraph that no one can be perfect all the time. Our ego will fight back (it's a hardy weed to uproot) and there may be lots of lapses, but one normally has several years or several decades to keep correcting any problems, the best one can. The key for the timely corrections is to develop as good FEEDBACK from the entire body of Self (all humans and other beings enfolded by it) as possible, to feed the outer links (from other humans) into the inner receptors of pain and pleasure, so they are indistinguishable (to the highest degree one can reach) from pain and pleasure signals originating in the original biological body. Most of us have a reasonably good feedback of this kind for those we love most. So, nurturing the same kind of love toward all of Self, however wide it expands (even if Saddam or your boss ends up inside), helps develop the feedback. Besides the feedback to affections, one needs general feedbacks to intellect, and these are nurtured by listening others with full attention, remebering what they said, by truly trying to understand their angle as ones own, by being open to and genuinly interested for what they wish to say, turning effectively into the person speaking... etc., and doing all that only so one can be of more help to them and others. I know, it seemingly goes against the grain, but in reality giving is more rewarding than getting (just for a test, try sometimes giving, say, $300 to an old woman digging for leftovers in the garbage cans). > 4) lastly, it appears to contradict itself. You have just > told me that the slightest of gaps or the tiniest cracks of > separation are fatal, but that we must also exhibit > "flexibility and earnestness in trying and exploring the new > ways, new things...." Not at all. Growing Self is like being a child again, seeing everything afresh, sheding stereotypes, ossified likes and dislikes brought in by self. The separation occurs precisely when the old self starts rejecting the new life that expanding Self opens up, and starts making judgments from some worn out empty labels, selecting "good" and "bad" based on calcified viewpoints. This again is a part of the ancient immortality recipes, an advice on how to grow wheat from those who had done it. For example, check the Gospel of Thomas, #22: Jesus saw infants being suckled. He said to his disciples, "These infants being suckled are like those who enter the Kingdom." They said to Him, "Shell we then, as children, enter the Kingdom?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then you will enter the Kingdom." There are many other of his sayings (in canonical gospels, too) linking child-like nature to oneness. Compare 'inside/outside' fragment with feedback discussion above (making outside network like the inside one), or 'above/below' or 'male/female' with the non-judgmental, open, fresh mind etc. discussion. The 'eyes in place of an eye...' etc is describing a single Self with each human enfolded within being felt and accepted fully and equally, as same, identical as oneself (also the fragment 'inside/outside' refers to the same). The Prologue (Jesus saying #1) of the Gospel of Thomas, has ''And he said, "Whoever finds the meaning of these sayings will not taste death." '' > As long as we accept the Complexity theory, that is. There is no complexity theory (not yet). It's a research field, a branch of science, which deals with general complex adaptible systems, investigates their properties, how they work, identifies their occurence in nature, etc. There is nothing to believe or disbelieve about it, its' just a large collection of interesting results (mostly of mathematical nature) about such systems. The connection between social organisms of complexity science (or complex systems beyond them) and the mystical gestalt of the large scale purposeful patterns (traditionally labeled as God or gods), as well as the implications of that identification for the related questions, such as the one we're discussing, is something that occured to me, didn't see it yet elsewhere. > 1) it requires me to accept that human life is unique from > other life forms. Although one can look at the human organism as differing from nearest animal relatives only in degree, as you know from physics, substances have a point of phase transition, so that a degree of T(emperature) makes all the difference. Similarly, if you have a solution of some substance, change concentration beyond certain level and the crystal will form. So, while it is true that homo sapiens differs from the nearest apes only in degree of various facilities, it is also possible that there is a point (or area) of "phase transition" in the space of these facilities, where something qualitatively new can occur when these facilities cross the point. In fact human societies, social organisms, are qualitatively new kind of organism (looking on any measures). Similar qualitatively new creatures emerged when the cells reached the level of complexity, the ability to synchronize (through electro-chemical signals) their operation, sufficiently to form societies of cells, the multicellular organisms. Apes lack richness of communication sufficient to glue together individuals into anything comparable (in complexity) to human societies. On another evolutionary track, the ecosystem & gene pool networks did try out the multi-organism natural technology with social insects, which are much simpler individually than apes, thus require less complex control & less rich communication to form multi-organism lifeforms (more complex behaviours of individuals require more complex control & communication mechanisms to harmonize them into social organism). That try ended up in blind alley, stuck in a local optimum (regarding the future development of multi-organism lifeforms). Similar pattern can be observed in the transition from single-cellular to multi-cellular organisms - the eco/genetic networks did invent several times the multi-cellular technology (over couple billion years) but only in Cambrian explosion half a billion years ago have they managed to invent the right building blocks to proceed and develop virtually all of todays multi-cellular organisms. The earlier tries, although not all extinct, were essentially dead ends as far as future complexification. You can see similar evolutionary patterns of many tries, precursors terminating in dead ends, and breakthroughs which carry on with novelty in develeopments of various technologies in human societies (e.g. DC current for electric power was a dead end, vacuum tube computers, too; some dead ends go extinct, some persist in some niches). Or, similarly in human culture, in arts and sciences. Or even in mental development of a single person (sort of mini evolution of individual's brain). You will also notice similar evolving-universe-like pattern in classical music (or in good movies or novels) where the main theme appears first in several subtle precursors which die out, until one of these takes off into its glorious unfolding. The human societies have crossed the phase transition threshold (mentioned above) ten millenia ago and have entered exponential spiral of evolution using qualitatively new technology (compared to much slower genetic technology) to transmit information and accumulated knowledge across generations. Such explosions of development occur via positive feedback loops, i.e. the development of human technology speeds up development of even more effective technology, which speeds the next level even more, leading to exponential growth of novelty. But no positive feedbacks and their exponential growths last for ever, they either burn out and perish or end up in a stasis, a (nearly) harmonized state of fixed, interlocked loops (e.g. insect societies). [of course, any statis is only a drastic slowdown, not an eternally unchangeable state] In summary, although individual human organisms differ from the nearest relatives only in the degree of their facilities, the human societies are qualitatively new type of lifeforms relative to multi-cellular lifeforms, just as multi-cellular organisms are qualitatively new type of lifeforms relative to single-cellular ones or as sexual reproduction is a qualitatively new gene propagation mechanism relative to asexual modes. Obviously, all semantic lines (such as those above) are matter of conventions, but my proposition isn't particularly sensitive to the semantics -- the proposition is that the 'self' (however you understand it) encoded in our fragile individual neural network (brain) can be recoded (by individual's actions) into the surrounding network of the social organism into a more durable live being. For such recoding to be possible the outer network must have richness and flexibility comparable to those of the inner network (individual brain). The animal societies seem to lack such richness and flexibility relative to their individual brains (although I can't really state that as a certainty). But for humans and their social network, such recoding (to a substantial degree) of the mortal 'self' to essentially immortal 'Self' does seem possible, as testified by many individuals throughout the history. The testimonies come both from those who had transformed their original 'self' beings into the live multi-organism Self beings (which had persisted beyond the death of the originating single biological body) and from many more of those who can gestalt these live Self beings from the past centuries and millenia. It is also possible that even our own inner world, the self, is itself some kind of collective Self of our brain cells immortalizing their little self beings (whatever these might be). The question is NOT WHETHER something intelligent & live can be encoded into the outer network (these two networks are esentially same kind of natural computing machinery, just different hardware), BUT only HOW MUCH of the (mortal) patterns within one brain [self] can be encoded into the (immortal) patterns within the social organism [Self], in a single lifetime. From all the historical, religious, mystical & biographical data it seems (to me, at least) that all that matters can be recoded into the outer network, thus immortalized. Other than historical testimony, expressed through a great variety of religious, mystical, philosophical and poetic schemes, I don't have any direct scientific proof that the substantial recoding is possible. No one has ever done such quantification (I've never even seen anyone else formulating this question into a specific, quantifiable and falsifiable natural mechanism, much less quntifying it). > 2) it is a self-contained perpetual motion machine. The > "distilled genetic essence" as you put it, or "seed" is > passed from one individual life to the next. Attribute "genetic" was in quotes in the original message, thus it was used as a metaphor (explicitely elaborated as a metaphor in several places), not literally genetic/DNA code. The idea of the metaphor was to compare relation of self-pattern in brain and Self-pattern in social organism with the relation of genetic pattern (genotype) and organism pattern (phenotype), in order to emphasize that Self is NOT some kind of enlarged REPLICA of self (but something, although tightly related to self, which manifests as something very different), just as embryo (or human) isn't some kind magnified replica of DNA or fertilized egg. Assumming you took it as a metaphor: > Is this an integer function? If so, how do you account for > population growth? Or do some new baby humans get these > "seeds" while others grow from scratch? ... The model here is an adaptible network (brain or social organism). In brain each memory is coded by slight modifications of thousands of links. When originating human encodes self (patterns in his brain) into Self (patterns in the social organism), he is only slightly changing the numerous links within social organism (using feedback for guidance, just as child uses feedback to learn to walk, without worrying about 'network' links). The gentle change of links among many other humans (some of these include the originator directly, most don't) DO AFFECT other humans, but DO NOT TAKE OVER OTHER HUMANS. Most of those enfolded into the Self pattern don't see it and aren't even aware they're affected at all (people don't have time or mental patience for subtle large scale patterns). Any change to them induced by the Self pattern enfolding them is either imperceptible or, when perceived, it apperas as something they wish to do on their own, something preferrable, some gain to themselves (e.g. consider receivers of the actions of Jesus, Mother Teresa etc). Important thing is that Self does not take over entire humans making up Its body, only touches a fraction, some aspect, some relations, some actions of these humans (they all do it of their own volition; no force can be used if Self is to come alive). Many other Self beings can share the same cells (individual humans) and even the same changes/actions of individual cells can be shared by many Self beings, just like the same boxes and the same letters in a crossword puzzle are being harmoniously shared by several words, or the same molecules of water and the same oscillations are being shared by many waves spreading from different centers, all permeating each other. Everyone gets a chance, but few take it. ------------------------------------------------------------------ FEEDBACK TO: FAX (617) 860-0344, Compuserve ID 75030,1044 ------------------------------------------------------------------