Date: Sat, 21 Jan 95 21:54 EET From: Dan Subject: [KLF-TALK:821] Re: KLF Music is Good Mood Setter for Games On Sat, 21 Jan 1995, Brian Scott Stucker wrote: > Wouldn't trying to mix a large s3m file in the background AND do all the > advanced graphics stuff at the same time be kind of a stretch for even a > Pentium? that's something intel would like you to believe. games are incredibly unoptimized nowadays. frankly, if games were programmed right, we would all still be using 386s. want to see games that are usually programmed right? look at the consoles. the 3do has about the same computing power as a 386SX-20, yet the games are as good as and often better than PC games. now before you techies all start yelling 'but the 3do has all these custom engines' - so does the PC. For sound there are soundcard, for video there are video cards, and in both these areas there are now cards that take almost all the load off the CPU if utilized properly. we don't need faster/bigger/better hardware, we need software that uses the hardware we've got. it's safe to say that there isn't one single game company out there who has done a game equivalent to the GEOS o/s, which runs acceptibly even on my 286-12, and on my 386DX-40 performs as good as a much much faster windows computer. the problem is nowadays we have incredibly uninnovative coders - even in the demo scene! nowadays, if a game runs slowly on a certain PC, the coder doesn't say "hmm, i'd better improve the efficiency of my program" - he says "your computer is too slow". what he should add is "for my incredibly shitty code". flame away :) >It takes a lot of CPU time to mix 8+ channels, and a LOT of CPU > time to get the smooth graphics to work as well. It doesn't take much cpu time to mix 8 channels of digital audio, it just takes good code. even DMP can mix 8 channels of digital audio with very little CPU usage, and DMP isn't exactly an example of stellar programming skills. - Dan ----------------- Date: Sat, 21 Jan 95 22:10 EET From: Dan Subject: [KLF-TALK:822] Re: many things On Sat, 21 Jan 1995, Brian Scott Stucker wrote: > Just because a lot of software is written for an operating system doesn't > make that system necessarily a good operating system. That just makes it a > standard. If IBM had supported a PC-Based UNIX system like Linux in the > early eighties, Bill Gates would still be broke, DOS would probably never > have been heard of, and the programs you named above would run on Linux. Yes, and 99% of the population would probably be using Macs. UNIX is an incredibly bad operating system for new users, worse than DOS. it's a perfect example of a program designed only to work for the people who wrote it. you might think it's wonderful, but unix, even with x-windows, has a poor user interface. the commodore 64 was more user-friendly. and besides, my point was not that windows/dos is a good os. it was that it is the standard os, and that's not going to change anytime soon, whether we like it or not. > You also have to define which group of users 90% of use DOS. I don't know > of any group of users other than personal use, IBM-compatable owners that > has a figure that high. The commercial sector doesn't use DOS for it's core > computing systems well more than half the time. Operating Systems like Linux > allow you to do everything you can do in DOS (given the program was written > for Linux) and gives you a multi-tasking, multi-user environment that DOS > can't. (And for those of you reading this, Windows is not an Operating System) > Windows 3.11 requires you have DOS, and a true operating system requires only > that you have a box to install it on.) I call any program that can do > everything another program can do and more, better.... What would you? DOS has the largest installed user base worldwide by FAR, and _especially_ in the commercial sector. i don't know where you work, but offhand i can think of only about five corporate sites where linux is installed at all, and it's not on Jo Mama's word-processing PC, it's for web servers and internet gateways. besides, my whole point is that there are *many* applications for which linux and other 'alternative OSes' are not an option. i haven't even seen a single 24-bit driver for X on it, much less any graphics software that has a hundreth of the power of photoshop or picture publisher. hell, i haven't even seen a word processor that begins to approach any of the good windows ones. maybe linux COULD do everything windows and DOS do, but my whole point is right now it DOESN'T. i also thinks it's absolutely rediculous to expect the average computer user to be able to compile his own programs and know the system intimately. this is like requiring a carpenter to make his own hammers and nails - if you have to spend all your time just getting the tools you need, when are you going to get the job done? - Dan ----------------- Date: Sat, 21 Jan 95 23:14 EET From: "Zach B." Subject: [KLF-TALK:823] Re: KLF Music is Good Mood Setter for Games > > > > On Sat, 21 Jan 1995, Brian Scott Stucker wrote: > > > Wouldn't trying to mix a large s3m file in the background AND do all the > > advanced graphics stuff at the same time be kind of a stretch for even a > > Pentium? > > that's something intel would like you to believe. games are incredibly > unoptimized nowadays. frankly, if games were programmed right, we would > all still be using 386s. want to see games that are usually programmed > right? look at the consoles. the 3do has about the same computing power > as a 386SX-20, yet the games are as good as and often better than PC > games. now before you techies all start yelling 'but the 3do has all > these custom engines' - so does the PC. For sound there are soundcard, > for video there are video cards, and in both these areas there are now > cards that take almost all the load off the CPU if utilized properly. we > don't need faster/bigger/better hardware, we need software that uses the > hardware we've got. it's safe to say that there isn't one single game The problem with that theory is that the hardware isn't standard. Even to use SVGA you need bloated code to do page flipping for all the different fucking chipsets :).. if you were to get into stuff like hardware sprites etc you would need lots of card specific code. The game companies would rather code their own engines that work on standard vga because they can crank that out faster which of course leads to greater profit. It would be really cool if we lived in a decent society, but unfortunatly we don't *sigh*. As long as money rules the world it will of course rule the computer industry as well. > company out there who has done a game equivalent to the GEOS o/s, which > runs acceptibly even on my 286-12, and on my 386DX-40 performs as good as > a much much faster windows computer. the problem is nowadays we have > incredibly uninnovative coders - even in the demo scene! nowadays, if a > game runs slowly on a certain PC, the coder doesn't say "hmm, i'd better > improve the efficiency of my program" - he says "your computer is too > slow". what he should add is "for my incredibly shitty code". I do agree that code can be optimized quite a bit. I mean shit, look at some of the stuff tran does on his friggin' 386-16?! But of course we all know how much time he spends on that stuff, the game companies simply don't have the will power to spend that much time because its sooo much easier to pull the '486-33 required' *pronounced Ultima 8.. stupid ass game*. > > flame away :) > > >It takes a lot of CPU time to mix 8+ channels, and a LOT of CPU > > time to get the smooth graphics to work as well. > > It doesn't take much cpu time to mix 8 channels of digital audio, it just > takes good code. even DMP can mix 8 channels of digital audio with very > little CPU usage, and DMP isn't exactly an example of stellar programming > skills. > > - Dan > > It all boils down to the fact that people code games for money. It takes so much time that unless you win the lottery or some shit then to maintain the 'american lifestyle' you have to have a way to make cash. -Zab [studying for finals *sigh* then the pcx ver for 'ya] :) ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 00:28 EET From: "Jens Puchert" Subject: [KLF-TALK:824] Re: many things In message <199501211014.EAA06582@tam2000.tamu.edu> you write: >> > I hate being a dick, but I installed Linux just so I _could_ do work. >> > McGill uses mostly Unix boxes, and it is nice to have gcc and Mosaic at ho >me. >> >> Of course, this makes perfect sense for people who are working with UNIX, >> but those people are generally scientific users, sysadmins, or net >> users. My point basically was that 90% or so of computer users need a >> computer that runs things like MS Word, Quark Xpress, PhotoShop, FoxPro, >> etc, and not emacs, so these people who preach these alternative o/ses >> as a solution for the masses are really off-base. >> >> I'm sure you are aware of this, but there are at least seven or eight >> graphical WWW browsers for Windows, most of which are as good as (and >> feature-wise, sometimes better) than the x-windows versions of NetScape, >> NCSA, etc, so I couldn't see anyone Mosaic being a reason to run linux. >> gcc is a good one though :) >> >Just because a lot of software is written for an operating system doesn't >make that system necessarily a good operating system. That just makes it a >standard. If IBM had supported a PC-Based UNIX system like Linux in the >early eighties, Bill Gates would still be broke, DOS would probably never >have been heard of, and the programs you named above would run on Linux. > >You also have to define which group of users 90% of use DOS. I don't know >of any group of users other than personal use, IBM-compatable owners that >has a figure that high. The commercial sector doesn't use DOS for it's core >computing systems well more than half the time. Operating Systems like Linux >allow you to do everything you can do in DOS (given the program was written >for Linux) and gives you a multi-tasking, multi-user environment that DOS >can't. (And for those of you reading this, Windows is not an Operating System) >Windows 3.11 requires you have DOS, and a true operating system requires only >that you have a box to install it on.) I call any program that can do >everything another program can do and more, better.... What would you? This discussion is pretty much pointless. Nobody doubts that UNIX or NextStep are more powerful Operating Systems from a technical point of view. But neither one has the wide industry support with drivers and/or applications to make it a viable choice for mainstream businesses and home users. Those are OS's for scientific use, networked environments, and hackers. Also, you're entitled to your own opinion, but according to what our universities teach in CIS 655, Windows 3.11 would perfectly qualify as an OS. The definition says nothing about a single box. It demands that an OS is a set or routines that manage system resources and provide the application program with an interface to take advantage of its capabilities. Windows qulifies for both. And besides that, there is also Windows NT and soon to come Windows 95. Jensi ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 02:49 EET From: kimba@oxygen.it.com.au (kim davies) Subject: [KLF-TALK:828] Re: many things Gudday Dan, > Yes, and 99% of the population would probably be using Macs. UNIX is an > incredibly bad operating system for new users, worse than DOS. it's a > perfect example of a program designed only to work for the people who > wrote it. you might think it's wonderful, but unix, even with x-windows, > has a poor user interface. the commodore 64 was more user-friendly. yeah, in dos you have config.sys and autoexec.bat, in linux you have: DOMAINNAME crond.pid fingerd.msg hosts.equiv lilo/ nntpserver resolv.conf syslog.pid HOSTNAME csh.login fstab hosts.lpd lilo.conf npasswd.conf rpc termcap Mail.rc default/ ftpusers inetd.conf localtime@ ntp.conf securetty ttytype X11/ dip.pid gateways inetd.pid manpath.config organization services utmp aliases diphosts gettydefs inittab motd passwd shells ztalkd* atalkd* disktab group issue motd.2 passwd- shit banner elm.rc host.conf issue.2 motd.old printcap skel/ bootptab examples/ hosts issue.old mtab profile smail.conf core exports hosts.allow keytables/ mtools protocols sudoers core.joe fdprm hosts.deny ld.so.conf networks rc.d/ syslog.conf and that's just the beginning... :-) [not dan said..] > > computing systems well more than half the time. Operating Systems like Linux > > allow you to do everything you can do in DOS (given the program was written > > for Linux) and gives you a multi-tasking, multi-user environment that DOS You can run most DOS programs unger Linux with dosemu.. > > can't. (And for those of you reading this, Windows is not an Operating System) > > Windows 3.11 requires you have DOS, and a true operating system requires only > > that you have a box to install it on.) I call any program that can do Windows is more of an operating system than DOS will ever be. Windows hardly relies on DOS, and Win95 wont at all. In fact, you'd probably classify DOS as a somewhat large and kludgy boot manager for Windows. > > everything another program can do and more, better.... What would you? How many people out there are qualified to hack out Makefile's to compile their software that they want to run under Linux? I really dont think the average person really wants to worry about it - they want a pretty install program that runs itself and they can work out, not spitting out gcc warnings and other 'useful' information.. -- Kim Davies aka Statix [Oxygen/KLF] kimba@it.com.au, statix@oxygen.it.com.au Perthnet ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 01:42 EET From: "Jens Puchert" Subject: [KLF-TALK:826] Re: whitesand ... In message <199501211029.EAA07447@tam2000.tamu.edu> you write: > >> As for calling Jens lame for developing under windows, get real! I >> think mod4win is THE best mod player I have ever heard (at least on >> my sound card) I will agree that windows can be slow, and that microsoft >> totally sucks, but if you have a better alternative, please let us >> know what it is. I for one am NOT into re-inventing the wheel and >> rewriting my own operating system each time I develop a program. >> Just my 2 yen >> -Dan G. >> > >Kernigan wrote the original UNIX operating system for a game of his because >he didn't like the existing OS the mainfraime he was using used back in the >dark ages... Reinventing the wheel at this point for a whole OS may not be >a good idea, but perhaps writing code to replace the few things windows really >does for MOD4Win (Screen, mouse, and CPU time) would be worth the effort... Nah, you forget the two most important factors here: First Windows allows for 32 bit code and 32 bit memory access without hassleful incompabtible DOS drivers and memory managers, and second Windows provides its applications with a unified interface to all possibe sound devices in existance. Unlike all DOS players, Mod4Win doesn't have to care about the mess with incompatible sound hardware and all the different settings and interfaces. Trust me, every Windows programmer wouldn't wanna miss either of those two capabilities of a real OS and go back to DOS. >I wrote a BBS program based off an existing program and found when I started >all over from scratch and built my own software from the ground up it worked >a whole lot better, and did a whole lot more. Sometimes the wheel is flat, and >needs to be re-invented just to be usable again. If you suggest that leaving Windows and returning to DOS is a form of re- inventing the wheel you're quite missing the point. It's more like returning to a mud slide. Jensi ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 02:16 EET From: "Steven M. Hill" Subject: [KLF-TALK:827] Re: many things 1.) Windows 3.1 is according to Microsoft not an OS (this is how they intend to sell Windows 95). It is a buggy GUI 2.) Linux/Unix does indeed have good word-processors (ez, Xwordperfect), Image processors (ImageMagick, Xli, etc.) Here endeth the lesson. P.S. I agree that as a GUI X-windows isn't the prettiest. (NeXtstep, OTH..) Steve. ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 00:34 EET From: "Jens Puchert" Subject: [KLF-TALK:825] Re: KLF Music is Good Mood Setter for Games In message <199501211019.EAA06834@tam2000.tamu.edu> you write: >> >> I think Id would be smart to put a mod/mtm/s3m loader in Quake for >> optional background music. >> --- >> .oOo............. Andrew McCallum = Mental Floss [KFMF] ...........oOo. >> .oO andrewm@io.org Music: ftp:freedom.wit.com/klf/songs/artists/andrewm Oo >. >> oO http://www.io.org/~andrewm/me.html Fon: 905.884.3739 Fax: 905.508.1527 O >o. >> >> >Wouldn't trying to mix a large s3m file in the background AND do all the >advanced graphics stuff at the same time be kind of a stretch for even a >Pentium? It takes a lot of CPU time to mix 8+ channels, and a LOT of CPU >time to get the smooth graphics to work as well. > >BTW- Does anyone know when Quake will be out? Not with preemptive multitasking. Considering that a Pentium 60 (the slowest Pentium) is roughly twice as fast as a 486DX2/66, you still have one 486 to do the graphics and one 486 to mix the music. Since a 486 can do either one perfectly fine, there is no reason a Pentium couldn't do both. Jensi ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 03:09 EET From: kimba@oxygen.it.com.au (kim davies) Subject: [KLF-TALK:829] Re: KLF Music is Good Mood Setter for Games Gudday Dan, > > that's something intel would like you to believe. games are incredibly > unoptimized nowadays. frankly, if games were programmed right, we would > all still be using 386s. want to see games that are usually programmed > right? look at the consoles. the 3do has about the same computing power > as a 386SX-20, yet the games are as good as and often better than PC > games. now before you techies all start yelling 'but the 3do has all > these custom engines' - so does the PC. For sound there are soundcard, > for video there are video cards, and in both these areas there are now > cards that take almost all the load off the CPU if utilized properly. we > don't need faster/bigger/better hardware, we need software that uses the hang on.. "we don't need faster/bigger/better hardware" "there are now cards that take almost all of the load off the CPU" considering 99% of the uneducated world have SB/pro/16, to get a soundcard, for example, which will take almost all of the load off the cpu, you need to get "fast/bigger/better hardware" (i.e. gus/awe32) ... it's all very well saying this - but not everyone has the kind of computer to do it on, let alone everyone doesn't have the SAME configuration like a console. > hardware we've got. it's safe to say that there isn't one single game > company out there who has done a game equivalent to the GEOS o/s, which geos the game, interesting concept :) > incredibly uninnovative coders - even in the demo scene! nowadays, if a > game runs slowly on a certain PC, the coder doesn't say "hmm, i'd better > improve the efficiency of my program" - he says "your computer is too > slow". what he should add is "for my incredibly shitty code". personally, i'd rather code less than perfect code, rather than spend forever doing something that's inevitably boring - especially as I am getting no monetary satisfaction from it - and I have 1001 other things to do. Even for work, when I work on optimising code, my supervisor tells me to do something else - they dont really want to hold up the production of a product for the sake of optimisation. I dont know if this is the same as a game company or not :) > flame away :) combust away :) -- Kim Davies aka Statix [Oxygen/KLF] kimba@it.com.au, statix@oxygen.it.com.au Perthnet ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 03:23 EET From: "Chris Campbell" Subject: [KLF-TALK:830] Re: Mod4Win Expiry On Sat, 21 Jan 95 10:04 EET, Jens Puchert wrote: >>Does it play trackers bigger than 768k on a 768k GUS? Geeze, I used >>MOD4WIN once in the month I had it and it won't let me use it again, I >>download it again and it still says expired. I sure won't be registering >>that, didn't even get to try it. >Yes it does. Awesome, where can I FTP Mongrel Player, can't wait to hear those big files. -- campbell@fox.nstn.ca / Exams (x'ams), n. Hell ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 03:24 EET From: "Chris Campbell" Subject: [KLF-TALK:831] Re: KLF Music is Good Mood Setter for Games On Sat, 21 Jan 95 12:24 EET, Brian Scott Stucker wrote: >Wouldn't trying to mix a large s3m file in the background AND do all the >advanced graphics stuff at the same time be kind of a stretch for even a >Pentium? It takes a lot of CPU time to mix 8+ channels, and a LOT of CPU >time to get the smooth graphics to work as well. Only if you have a lame soundcard which does all it's mixing in software such as Sand Blaster and compatibles. -- campbell@fox.nstn.ca / Exams (x'ams), n. Hell ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 04:20 EET From: "Chris V. Wells" Subject: [KLF-TALK:832] Re: KLF Music is Good Mood Setter for Games On Sat, 21 Jan 1995, Dan wrote: [blah.. i cut it out :D] > > flame away :) naw, cause you're right.. :D > It doesn't take much cpu time to mix 8 channels of digital audio, it just > takes good code. even DMP can mix 8 channels of digital audio with very > little CPU usage, and DMP isn't exactly an example of stellar programming > skills. well, dmp is certainly decent programming (as far as optimization goes. i'm not talking about accuracy here.. :D) but, when you're talking about gus, any program built around the gus sdk is gonna use very little cpu. when you have alot of overhead (including graphics, etc. especially realtime stuff), you have to expect slower output.. ::dynamis cvwells@capaccess.org ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 04:30 EET From: "Chris V. Wells" Subject: [KLF-TALK:833] Re: many things On Sat, 21 Jan 1995, Dan wrote: > Yes, and 99% of the population would probably be using Macs. UNIX is an > incredibly bad operating system for new users, worse than DOS. it's a > perfect example of a program designed only to work for the people who > wrote it. you might think it's wonderful, but unix, even with x-windows, > has a poor user interface. the commodore 64 was more user-friendly. > > and besides, my point was not that windows/dos is a good os. it was that > it is the standard os, and that's not going to change anytime soon, > whether we like it or not. true. the whole computer community seems to be following microsoft's lead because the software designers are. > DOS has the largest installed user base worldwide by FAR, and > _especially_ in the commercial sector. i don't know where you work, but > offhand i can think of only about five corporate sites where linux is > installed at all, and it's not on Jo Mama's word-processing PC, it's for > web servers and internet gateways. umm.. netware. (commercial sector, and that makes up at least 50-55% of all installed networks) nuf said here. :D > besides, my whole point is that there are *many* applications for which > linux and other 'alternative OSes' are not an option. i haven't even seen > a single 24-bit driver for X on it, much less any graphics software that > has a hundreth of the power of photoshop or picture publisher. hell, i > haven't even seen a word processor that begins to approach any of the good > windows ones. maybe linux COULD do everything windows and DOS do, but my > whole point is right now it DOESN'T. i also thinks it's absolutely > rediculous to expect the average computer user to be able to compile his > own programs and know the system intimately. this is like requiring a > carpenter to make his own hammers and nails - if you have to spend all > your time just getting the tools you need, when are you going to get the > job done? it's been tried. nextstep is 24-bit but it never caught on in the pc werld (much less the NeXT werld). solaris will probably catch on to some extent in the commercial sector, but only replacing existing Sun servers/workstations. Admittedly, the switch to Solaris/PC will be slow because Pentium technology isn't good enough to warrant a switch. (wait until p6 for this one). solaris is 24-bit and it could catch on, but never as an end-user platform.. ::dynamis cvwells@capaccess.org ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 04:36 EET From: "Chris V. Wells" Subject: [KLF-TALK:834] Re: many things On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, kim davies wrote: > yeah, in dos you have config.sys and autoexec.bat, in linux you have: > > DOMAINNAME crond.pid fingerd.msg hosts.equiv lilo/ > nntpserver resolv.conf syslog.pid [cut to save bandwidth] > core.joe fdprm hosts.deny ld.so.conf networks > rc.d/ syslog.conf > > and that's just the beginning... :-) admittedly.. > You can run most DOS programs unger Linux with dosemu.. ewww.. i don't like dosemu. you have to be reel careful what you run in dosemu. alot of the "bad" dos programs can't be run, which, unfortunately, includes alot of programs. (not that its dosemu's fault, mind you..) > Windows is more of an operating system than DOS will ever be. Windows hardly > relies on DOS, and Win95 wont at all. In fact, you'd probably classify DOS > as a somewhat large and kludgy boot manager for Windows. win95 better be worth the hype. i never believe the hype (especially when it comes from pc magazine or something like that.. :D). i want to see it and run it and play with it a little. any1 here have warp? is it worth $89? ::dynamis cvwells@capaccess.org ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 05:14 EET From: kimba@oxygen.it.com.au (kim davies) Subject: [KLF-TALK:835] Re: many things Gudday Chris V. Wells, > > ewww.. i don't like dosemu. you have to be reel careful what you run in > dosemu. alot of the "bad" dos programs can't be run, which, > unfortunately, includes alot of programs. (not that its dosemu's fault, > mind you..) neither do I :) I am interested to see what WINE is like thought (windows emulator for X for undeucated people..) > win95 better be worth the hype. i never believe the hype (especially when > it comes from pc magazine or something like that.. :D). i want to see it > and run it and play with it a little. doom seemed to have lived up to the hype that id created, and I do imho think that win95 will be worth the hype... > any1 here have warp? is it worth $89? yeah, ibm australia gave me a free copy - but I dont have a cd-rom to install it with :) what has this got to do with kosmic? cya, -- ,,:::[ kim davies ]:::.. ::::::[ kimba@it.com.au, kim@omen.com.au, 3:690/660.273@fidonet ]:::::: ::::::[ statix [oxygen/kosmic] ]:::::: '':::[ 31y50'16"S 115y46'19"E ]:::`` ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 06:58 EET From: andrewm@io.org (Andrew McCallum) Subject: [KLF-TALK:836] Re: whitesand ... Schitzo, now you've irked me. It feels weird to know that someone, somewhere, right now... is having sex and listening to White Sands. :) Hey, there's a new slogan. "Kosmic - Great music to have sex to!" --- .oOo............. Andrew McCallum = Mental Floss [KFMF] ...........oOo. .oO andrewm@io.org Music: ftp:freedom.wit.com/klf/songs/artists/andrewm Oo. oO http://www.io.org/~andrewm/me.html Fon: 905.884.3739 Fax: 905.508.1527 Oo. ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 07:08 EET From: Dan Subject: [KLF-TALK:838] Re: many things On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, Chris V. Wells wrote: > > DOS has the largest installed user base worldwide by FAR, and > > _especially_ in the commercial sector. i don't know where you work, but > > offhand i can think of only about five corporate sites where linux is > > installed at all, and it's not on Jo Mama's word-processing PC, it's for > > web servers and internet gateways. > > umm.. netware. (commercial sector, and that makes up at least 50-55% of > all installed networks) nuf said here. :D read more carefully please chris, i said Linux, not Novell UnixWare, NetWare, Corsair (which at one time almost became an enhanced linux) or any other os. And Netware is what they run on the servers, 90% of the clients are running DOS, Windows, or System 6/7 :) > it's been tried. nextstep is 24-bit but it never caught on in the pc > werld (much less the NeXT werld). solaris will probably catch on to some nextstep was/is a great o/s, one of the best i've seen, but it never stood a chance in hell thanks to their poor marketing. - Dan ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 07:08 EET From: Dan Subject: [KLF-TALK:837] Re: KLF Music is Good Mood Setter for Games On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, kim davies wrote: > "we don't need faster/bigger/better hardware" > "there are now cards that take almost all of the load off the CPU" > > considering 99% of the uneducated world have SB/pro/16, to get a soundcard, > for example, which will take almost all of the load off the cpu, you need to > get "fast/bigger/better hardware" (i.e. gus/awe32) ... actually, i would have to say that as a whole even dumb-DAC technology cards haven't come close to being used to their full extent *on a regular basis*, considering the shit FM music that's still very pervasive. I mean, it's entirely possible to play 4-channels of digital audio simultaneously on an ADLIB card and yet i've only seen it done twice out of thousands of games. the same goes for digital audio capabilities on something which has a more easily programmed DAC, like an SB Pro. Also, there are quite likely at least 500,000 SB 16s *with* the ASP chip out there, yet i haven't seen a single game that uses it! that's just silly to me. on the other hand it makes perfect sense to companies who manufacture hardware that software should keep "pushing the envelope", a purely bullshit term when the envelope hasn't even been opened so to speak. > it's all very well saying this - but not everyone has the kind of computer to > do it on, let alone everyone doesn't have the SAME configuration like a > console. While I see where you and other independent programmers may be coming from, the arguement doesn't hold much ground for these multi-million dollar software houses who are content to sit around and support only the lowest common denominator since no one is smart enough to wake up and complain that their hardware is going to waste. there are some exceptions, like US Navy Fighters (which supports various video boards natively with up to 1280X1024X256 resolution (on a pentium-90 of course :)) but they're awfully far in between. > personally, i'd rather code less than perfect code, rather than spend > forever doing something that's inevitably boring - especially as I am getting > no monetary satisfaction from it - and I have 1001 other things to do. i guess this is the real problem i have with the whole computer thing nowadays - the only kind of satisfaction anyone seems to want from it is money. i can't think of one coder offhand today even in the demo scene who doesn't give off the impression that they would rather not be coding unless someones fatting up their wallet. everyone seems to have forgotten how to have _fun_ and the satisfaction of doing it well simply so that when it's done you can be proud of it. god, i'm advocating the same thing that i used to rally against all the time :) > Even for work, when I work on optimising code, my supervisor tells me to do > something else - they dont really want to hold up the production of a > product for the sake of optimisation. I dont know if this is the same as a > game company or not :) two years ago, it wasn't. two years ago i could call guys i worked with in the middle of the night and they'd be in their offices trying to make things run just a little faster, or make the music playback just that much better. today most of those same people are more likely to be rendering 'interactive movies' on their SGI workstations, and some of them frankly don't give a flying fuck about good code anymore. as those damn frenchmen say, c'est la vie :-) - Dan ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 07:57 EET From: "Jens Puchert" Subject: [KLF-TALK:839] Re: Mod4Win Expiry In message <86682.campbell@fox.nstn.ca> you write: >On Sat, 21 Jan 95 10:04 EET, >Jens Puchert wrote: > >>>Does it play trackers bigger than 768k on a 768k GUS? Geeze, I used >>>MOD4WIN once in the month I had it and it won't let me use it again, I >>>download it again and it still says expired. I sure won't be registering >>>that, didn't even get to try it. > >>Yes it does. > >Awesome, where can I FTP Mongrel Player, can't wait to hear those big files. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ??? In case you were referring to Mod4Win, you can find it at ftp://ftp.eng.ufl.edu/demos/music/programs/players/m4w212sx.zip ftp://freedom.wit.com/klf/songs/Mod4Win/m4w212sx.zip >-- >campbell@fox.nstn.ca / Exams (x'ams), n. Hell Jensi ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 09:52 EET From: Chng Ching Huei Subject: [KLF-TALK:840] Re: Mod4Win Expiry On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, Chris Campbell wrote: > Awesome, where can I FTP Mongrel Player, can't wait to hear those big files. > > -- > campbell@fox.nstn.ca / Exams (x'ams), n. Hell It's the Morgul Player and not Mongrel Player. You can find it by ftp to ftp.wi.leidenuniv.nl somewhere in one of the subdirectories of /pub/aria/audio. This site specialises in providing user support for the Aria chipset soundcards from Sierra Semiconductor. Benedict Chng. Email: chngchi1@iscs.nus.sg Republic of Singapore Another Doomanic! ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 09:57 EET From: Chng Ching Huei Subject: [KLF-TALK:841] Re: whitesand ... On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, Andrew McCallum wrote: > > "Kosmic - Great music to have sex to!" Really!? ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 11:53 EET From: Ryan Hanson Subject: [KLF-TALK:842] Mod4Win - jensi, will you please stop advertising your mod player here on this list...i have yet to see a message from you that is not plugging your damn player. a few issues : 1. yes, it is device independant, which also means that on a GUS it mixes for shit because its uploading the samples as they are being played thus rendering my gus a glorified sand bastard(tm)... 2. 32 bit code. um, windows still supports the 286 protected mode and is based on 16 bit code. all 32 bit applications have to use a windows extender, which is what win32s is...it provides a 16-bit 'thunking layer' allowing 32 bit to be translated to 16 bit system calls for windows to comprehend them. yes your player handles large mods but any dos player with sample caching can do the same ... a pmode player like STARPLAY has no thunking layer and also is running directly to the hardware instead of passing through several layers of drivers. you have not written the best player on earth. it has a pretty interface but basically is no better than any other player, and is, in my opinion, far worse than iplay or dmp for that matter, which both run fine on a 386sx-25 even with a sand bastard(tm) and mix just fine using EMS. good player, yes...but lay off a bit. natas/lithium ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 12:39 EET From: "Jens Puchert" Subject: [KLF-TALK:843] Re: In message <9501220947.AA31577@nes.nersc.gov> you write: >Mod4Win - jensi, will you please stop advertising your mod player here on >this list...i have yet to see a message from you that is not plugging your >damn player. a few issues : > >1. yes, it is device independant, which also means that on a GUS it mixes for >shit because its uploading the samples as they are being played thus rendering >my gus a glorified sand bastard(tm)... Admittedly not a nice solution. Direct GUS h/w support would be nice, but a unified driver interface for intelligent sound cards would be even nicer. We'll see. >2. 32 bit code. um, windows still supports the 286 protected mode and is base >d >on 16 bit code. Not in 386 enhanced mode which Mod4Win requires. >all 32 bit applications have to use a windows extender, which >is what win32s is...it provides a 16-bit 'thunking layer' allowing 32 bit >to be translated to 16 bit system calls for windows to comprehend them. I'm not talking about 32 bit system calls which indeed require the Win32s library. I'm talking about using 32 bit instructions in our code and allocating 32 bit data segments in plain Windows (in 386 enhanced mode that is). >yes your player handles large mods but any dos player with sample caching can >do the same ... a pmode player like STARPLAY has no thunking layer and also >is running directly to the hardware instead of passing through several layers >of drivers. you have not written the best player on earth. it has a pretty >interface but basically is no better than any other player, and is, in >my opinion, far worse than iplay or dmp for that matter, which both run fine >on a 386sx-25 even with a sand bastard(tm) and mix just fine using EMS. I'm so sorry for not being able to provide you ultimate joy with our product, my friend. >good player, yes...but lay off a bit. >natas/lithium Jensi ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 16:00 EET From: "Chris Campbell" Subject: [KLF-TALK:844] Re: many things On Sun, 22 Jan 95 02:49 EET, kim davies wrote: >yeah, in dos you have config.sys and autoexec.bat, in linux you have: >DOMAINNAME crond.pid fingerd.msg hosts.equiv lilo/ [snip] This is all very interesting but I didn't join this tracker music / KLF list to have stuff about Linux filling up my mailbox, do I speak for everyone when I politely request that you take this stuff to an approaite newsgroup or e-mail? -- campbell@fox.nstn.ca / Exams (x'ams), n. Hell ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 16:01 EET From: "Chris Campbell" Subject: [KLF-TALK:845] Re: KLF Music is Good Mood Setter for Games On Sun, 22 Jan 95 04:20 EET, Chris V. Wells wrote: >well, dmp is certainly decent programming (as far as optimization goes. >i'm not talking about accuracy here.. :D) but, when you're talking about Anyone know what happened to DMP? Used to have a new version every few days but I haven't seen anything since Inertia Player v1.2 came out, guess Otto saw his competition and gave up :( -- campbell@fox.nstn.ca / Exams (x'ams), n. Hell ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 22:24 EET From: Simon THORNINGTON Subject: [KLF-TALK:850] Re: many things On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, Chris V. Wells wrote: > any1 here have warp? is it worth $89? Yup. It's worth it, if you like DOS stuff. It is much easier to install than 2.1 was. It's nice. But I still prefer Linux! ='P Simon. ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 00:46 EET From: "Jens Puchert" Subject: [KLF-TALK:851] Re: Mod4Win Expiry In message <67928.campbell@fox.nstn.ca> you write: >On Sun, 22 Jan 95 09:52 EET, >Chng Ching Huei wrote: > >>> Awesome, where can I FTP Mongrel Player, can't wait to hear those big files >. >>It's the Morgul Player and not Mongrel Player. > >Sorry :( > >>You can find it by ftp to ftp.wi.leidenuniv.nl somewhere in one of the >>subdirectories of /pub/aria/audio. This site specialises in providing >>user support for the Aria chipset soundcards from Sierra Semiconductor. > >Ok, I'll look, it does sample caching right? > >-- >campbell@fox.nstn.ca / Exams (x'ams), n. Hell If memory serves right, Morgul is a DMP derivative, so it does no more and no less than DMP itself. Jensi ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 22:13 EET From: "Chris Campbell" Subject: [KLF-TALK:848] Re: Mod4Win Expiry On Sun, 22 Jan 95 09:52 EET, Chng Ching Huei wrote: >> Awesome, where can I FTP Mongrel Player, can't wait to hear those big files. >It's the Morgul Player and not Mongrel Player. Sorry :( >You can find it by ftp to ftp.wi.leidenuniv.nl somewhere in one of the >subdirectories of /pub/aria/audio. This site specialises in providing >user support for the Aria chipset soundcards from Sierra Semiconductor. Ok, I'll look, it does sample caching right? -- campbell@fox.nstn.ca / Exams (x'ams), n. Hell ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 22:13 EET From: "Chris Campbell" Subject: [KLF-TALK:847] Re: whitesand ... On Sun, 22 Jan 95 06:58 EET, Andrew McCallum wrote: > Schitzo, now you've irked me. It feels weird to know that someone, >somewhere, right now... is having sex and listening to White Sands. :) Aww, come on admit it, you wish it was you :D:D -- campbell@fox.nstn.ca / Exams (x'ams), n. Hell ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 22:12 EET From: "Chris Campbell" Subject: [KLF-TALK:846] Re: On Sun, 22 Jan 95 11:53 EET, Ryan Hanson wrote: >yes your player handles large mods but any dos player with sample caching can >do the same ... a pmode player like STARPLAY has no thunking layer and also >is running directly to the hardware instead of passing through several layers Can you tell me where I can get a player that does sample caching? I have never come accross one :( -- campbell@fox.nstn.ca / Exams (x'ams), n. Hell ----------------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 22:14 EET From: "Chris Campbell" Subject: [KLF-TALK:849] Re: Mod4Win Expiry On Sun, 22 Jan 95 07:57 EET, Jens Puchert wrote: >>>>Does it play trackers bigger than 768k on a 768k GUS? Geeze, I used >>>Yes it does. >>Awesome, where can I FTP Mongrel Player, can't wait to hear those big files. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >In case you were referring to Mod4Win, you can find it at >ftp://ftp.eng.ufl.edu/demos/music/programs/players/m4w212sx.zip >ftp://freedom.wit.com/klf/songs/Mod4Win/m4w212sx.zip No I wasn't, I said that MOD4WIN let me use it once then wouldn't let me use it again. Do you have a newer version of MOD4WIN that will give me a half decent trial? I thought 30 days meant 30 days I used it, I hardly even use Windows! -- campbell@fox.nstn.ca / Exams (x'ams), n. Hell ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 00:52 EET From: kimba@oxygen.it.com.au (kim davies) Subject: [KLF-TALK:852] Re: KLF Music is Good Mood Setter for Games Gudday Chris Campbell, > > Anyone know what happened to DMP? Used to have a new version every few > days but I haven't seen anything since Inertia Player v1.2 came out, guess > Otto saw his competition and gave up :( dmp is discontinued as otto is doing commercial work now. later, -- ,,:::[ kim davies ]:::.. ::::::[ kimba@it.com.au, kim@omen.com.au, 3:690/660.273@fidonet ]:::::: ::::::[ statix [oxygen/kosmic] ]:::::: '':::[ 31y50'16"S 115y46'19"E ]:::`` ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 00:52 EET From: "Jens Puchert" Subject: [KLF-TALK:853] Re: Mod4Win Expiry In message <67922.campbell@fox.nstn.ca> you write: >>In case you were referring to Mod4Win, you can find it at >>ftp://ftp.eng.ufl.edu/demos/music/programs/players/m4w212sx.zip >>ftp://freedom.wit.com/klf/songs/Mod4Win/m4w212sx.zip > >No I wasn't, I said that MOD4WIN let me use it once then wouldn't let me >use it again. Do you have a newer version of MOD4WIN that will give me a >half decent trial? I thought 30 days meant 30 days I used it, I hardly >even use Windows! Maybe it's not for you then. One of the nice things about Mod4Win is that you fire it up and then push it in the background while doing your every day's business with other Windows applications. As far as expiration, if you have an earlier version than 2.12 get the 2.12 and it'll give you 30 more days, otherwise you'll have to wait until a new version is released or set back your machines clock to the original installation date. >-- >campbell@fox.nstn.ca / Exams (x'ams), n. Hell Jensi ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 01:54 EET From: vossa@rpi.edu (Andrew Voss) Subject: [KLF-TALK:854] Re: DMP On Jan 23, 12:52am, kim davies wrote: > Subject: [KLF-TALK:852] Re: KLF Music is Good Mood Setter for Games > Gudday Chris Campbell, > > > > Anyone know what happened to DMP? Used to have a new version every few > > days but I haven't seen anything since Inertia Player v1.2 came out, guess > > Otto saw his competition and gave up :( > > dmp is discontinued as otto is doing commercial work now. > T'is a shame. As an SBPro owner, I still use DMP regularly (and wrote DMP Shell). Perhaps someone could take the DSMI and continue work on DMP or the like where Otto left off? Are there any players using DSMI that are _better_ than DMP? -av (phoenix/kosmic) ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 02:04 EET From: "Chris V. Wells" Subject: [KLF-TALK:856] Re: many things On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, Dan wrote: > > umm.. netware. (commercial sector, and that makes up at least 50-55% of > > all installed networks) nuf said here. :D > any other os. And Netware is what they run on the servers, 90% of the > clients are running DOS, Windows, or System 6/7 :) yes, yes, yes - i'm talking about *applications* for dos. > > it's been tried. nextstep is 24-bit but it never caught on in the pc > > werld (much less the NeXT werld). solaris will probably catch on to some > > nextstep was/is a great o/s, one of the best i've seen, but it never > stood a chance in hell thanks to their poor marketing. plus, it came out too early and too expensively. (24-bit color back then was unheard of). ::dynamis cvwells@capaccess.org ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 02:12 EET From: "Chris V. Wells" Subject: [KLF-TALK:857] Re: many things On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, Simon THORNINGTON wrote: > > On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, Chris V. Wells wrote: > > > any1 here have warp? is it worth $89? > > Yup. It's worth it, if you like DOS stuff. It is much easier to install > than 2.1 was. It's nice. But I still prefer Linux! ='P i'm getting a brand spanking new computer in june, but my bro was debating whether to get warp. i dunno. i think i'll stick with win95. that way i can grab mod4win 95.0 or something like that.. :D ::dynamis cvwells@capaccess.org ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 02:39 EET From: "Jens Puchert" Subject: [KLF-TALK:858] Re: many things In message you write: >On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, Simon THORNINGTON wrote: > >> >> On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, Chris V. Wells wrote: >> >> > any1 here have warp? is it worth $89? >> >> Yup. It's worth it, if you like DOS stuff. It is much easier to install >> than 2.1 was. It's nice. But I still prefer Linux! ='P > >i'm getting a brand spanking new computer in june, but my bro was debating >whether to get warp. i dunno. i think i'll stick with win95. that way i >can grab mod4win 95.0 or something like that.. :D ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hehe, just slightly ahead of our time, huh? >::dynamis >cvwells@capaccess.org Jensi ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 01:55 EET From: "Chris V. Wells" Subject: [KLF-TALK:855] Re: many things On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, kim davies wrote: > neither do I :) I am interested to see what WINE is like thought (windows > emulator for X for undeucated people..) what's this got to do with klf?!? :D > doom seemed to have lived up to the hype that id created, and I do imho think > that win95 will be worth the hype... hmm.. we'll have to wait i'll guess.. > > any1 here have warp? is it worth $89? > > yeah, ibm australia gave me a free copy - but I dont have a cd-rom to > install it with :) i wanna see if i should wait for win95, that's all.. :D ::dynamis cvwells@capaccess.org ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 04:37 EET From: Schitzo Subject: [KLF-TALK:860] Re: KLF Music is Good Mood Setter for Games On Sat, 21 Jan 1995, Dan wrote: > > On Sat, 21 Jan 1995, Brian Scott Stucker wrote: > > > Wouldn't trying to mix a large s3m file in the background AND do all the > > advanced graphics stuff at the same time be kind of a stretch for even a > > Pentium? > > that's something intel would like you to believe. games are incredibly > unoptimized nowadays. frankly, if games were programmed right, we would > all still be using 386s. want to see games that are usually programmed > right? look at the consoles. the 3do has about the same computing power > as a 386SX-20, yet the games are as good as and often better than PC > games. now before you techies all start yelling 'but the 3do has all > these custom engines' - so does the PC. For sound there are soundcard, > for video there are video cards, and in both these areas there are now > cards that take almost all the load off the CPU if utilized properly. we > don't need faster/bigger/better hardware, we need software that uses the > hardware we've got. it's safe to say that there isn't one single game > company out there who has done a game equivalent to the GEOS o/s, which > runs acceptibly even on my 286-12, and on my 386DX-40 performs as good as > a much much faster windows computer. the problem is nowadays we have > incredibly uninnovative coders - even in the demo scene! nowadays, if a > game runs slowly on a certain PC, the coder doesn't say "hmm, i'd better > improve the efficiency of my program" - he says "your computer is too > slow". what he should add is "for my incredibly shitty code". > > flame away :) i'm no techie ... and this is not a flame! :) ... but talking about coding, isn't it also the fact that the operating system (namely dos and windows) the REAL factor that we have so much crappy coding in games while 3do doesn't have this factor which reduces some major problems and overhead? also 3do and consoles of the like, don't have to worry about different hardware setups to take into consideration (as do pc-games)? ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 04:32 EET From: Schitzo Subject: [KLF-TALK:859] Re: KLF Music is Good Mood Setter for Games On Sat, 21 Jan 1995 max0803@IMAP2.ASU.EDU wrote: > > > Oops. Sorry. I forgot about sound blaster users. > > What is Quake? never heard of this one before .. > > Cerulean [Defi] quake? ... it's what they had in japan! sorry, excuse me please, i couldn't resist! :) ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 04:53 EET From: Schitzo Subject: [KLF-TALK:861] Re: whitesand ... On Sat, 21 Jan 1995, Andrew McCallum wrote: > Schitzo, now you've irked me. It feels weird to know that someone, > somewhere, right now... is having sex and listening to White Sands. :) > > Hey, there's a new slogan. > > "Kosmic - Great music to have sex to!" HEY HEY HEY!!! ... i was talking about those classical midi files i have for my GUS!!! not kosmic stuff ... but now that you mention it, hmmm ... :) i'll report back to ya next week when i try whitesand out with the xes!!! ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 05:03 EET From: Schitzo Subject: [KLF-TALK:862] Re: On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, Ryan Hanson wrote: > Mod4Win - jensi, will you please stop advertising your mod player here on > this list...i have yet to see a message from you that is not plugging your > damn player. a few issues : [stuff deleted] > good player, yes...but lay off a bit. > natas/lithium yes i second this ... no more damn plugs ... if ya gonna do it, email the person directly (this also includes other LIST's!!!) ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 05:03 EET From: Schitzo Subject: [KLF-TALK:863] Re: whitesand ... On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, Chris Campbell wrote: > On Sun, 22 Jan 95 06:58 EET, > Andrew McCallum wrote: > > > Schitzo, now you've irked me. It feels weird to know that someone, > >somewhere, right now... is having sex and listening to White Sands. :) > > Aww, come on admit it, you wish it was you :D:D > > -- > campbell@fox.nstn.ca / Exams (x'ams), n. Hell > is that what it is ... HAHAHhehehHOHOHOhahahaHEHEHEHEhohoh ... uhhhm, sorry :) couldn't help myself there. ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 05:28 EET From: Dan Subject: [KLF-TALK:864] Re: Mod4Win Expiry On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, Chris Campbell wrote: > No I wasn't, I said that MOD4WIN let me use it once then wouldn't let me > use it again. Do you have a newer version of MOD4WIN that will give me a > half decent trial? I thought 30 days meant 30 days I used it, I hardly > even use Windows! a statement in documentation like "You may use the program for thirty days and then you must register if you continue using it" as well as a trial period such as the thirty days that Mod4Win unregistered provides *always*, unless specifically stated otherwise, refers to calendar days. So in the case of Mod4Win, it's perfectly sensible that it lets you use it from the day you start using it till thirty days later. Programs which let you use things for a set number of times, ie Air Mosaic Express, which only lets you connect to 6 URLs before needing to register, almost without exception don't give you enough time to try the program out to it's full extent. That is definitely not the case with a program like Mod4Win which lets you use the program for thirty days. You can play SEVEN-HUNDRED AND TWENTY HOURS OF MUSIC in thirty days. Mod4Win shareware is an _evaluation_ copy. When you download it, you are not being provided with it so you can use it for 30 days of your own choosing - it's being provided for you to *evaluate* it and see if it's something which will be useful to you. It's nobody's fault that you stopped using the program while the evaluation period was still in effect. Personally, i would say this: don't download a shareware program unless you're prepared to spend enough time with it to decide whether or not you want it. And what the hell's the big deal anyway? Just download it again and this time USE it while you've got it. If that's impossible (ie if Mod4Win leaves something that tells another copy that a trial copy has already been installed and expired), that's a different story. I'm not really too fond of things leaving files on my hd that i don't know about, so i would object to that kind of practice. - Dan ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 05:38 EET From: Dan Subject: [KLF-TALK:865] Re: many things On Mon, 23 Jan 1995, Chris V. Wells wrote: > i wanna see if i should wait for win95, that's all.. :D i want to get the list more back to music and shit, but personally i'd say most people will be smart to wait for win95. why? if win 95 actually gets out this year, os/2 will be able to run win95 applications well (but *never* as well as win95 (the myth that os/2 runs windows better than windows is just that, a myth - it's as slow as half the speed of native windows)) by 1997. Moreover, IBM won't bother by that time. IBM is not a prosperous company, and there's only so long even an ex-juggernaut such as Big Blue can sink money into what is inevitably a niche product. if you have an urge to try something new in the meantime - try LINUX :) while that recommendation might come as a suprise to everyone after my 'diatribes' against it, i DO find it lots of fun, and great for a personal internet box. - Dan ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 05:43 EET From: Dan Subject: [KLF-TALK:866] Re: many things On Mon, 23 Jan 1995, Chris V. Wells wrote: > i'm getting a brand spanking new computer in june, but my bro was debating > whether to get warp. i dunno. i think i'll stick with win95. that way i > can grab mod4win 95.0 or something like that.. :D Don't tell microsoft, but quite a few of the companies out there will ship your system with Windows 95's latest beta (which by June is likely to be more like an alpha) if you ask them. if anyone really wants the name of at least one (no, i don't work for them :) company email me and i'll tell you. provided you're not working for Microsoft or the Software Piracy Association (of liars in the pockets of major companies :) - Dan ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 07:47 EET From: "Jens Puchert" Subject: [KLF-TALK:867] Re: KLF Music is Good Mood Setter for Games In message you write: > >On Sat, 21 Jan 1995, Dan wrote: >> >> On Sat, 21 Jan 1995, Brian Scott Stucker wrote: >> >> > Wouldn't trying to mix a large s3m file in the background AND do all the >> > advanced graphics stuff at the same time be kind of a stretch for even a >> > Pentium? >> >> that's something intel would like you to believe. games are incredibly >> unoptimized nowadays. frankly, if games were programmed right, we would >> all still be using 386s. want to see games that are usually programmed >> right? look at the consoles. the 3do has about the same computing power >> as a 386SX-20, yet the games are as good as and often better than PC >> games. now before you techies all start yelling 'but the 3do has all >> these custom engines' - so does the PC. But they're not used, not in DOS anyways. I can't stretch this enough, but an OS without driver oriented architecture will not be able to take adventage of today's advanced and fascinating hardware. Incompatible h/w means direct support or driver oriented architecture. The first in impracticable (too many different devices, no upgradability, too high costs) and the second is technically impossible under DOS, the game platform of choice today. >> For sound there are soundcard, But only a few of them take any load off the CPU and those need to be directly supported (see above) and are not the most popular ones either. >> for video there are video cards, I've yet to see a DOS program (except expensive CAD programs maybe) that run anything higher than standard VGA. Talking about wasted resources. >> and in both these areas there are now >> cards that take almost all the load off the CPU if utilized properly. Right, but incompatible and therefore unusable without drivers (but I mentioned this already, didn't I ;-). >> we >> don't need faster/bigger/better hardware, we need software that uses the >> hardware we've got. it's safe to say that there isn't one single game >> company out there who has done a game equivalent to the GEOS o/s, which >> runs acceptibly even on my 286-12, and on my 386DX-40 performs as good as >> a much much faster windows computer. the problem is nowadays we have >> incredibly uninnovative coders - even in the demo scene! nowadays, if a >> game runs slowly on a certain PC, the coder doesn't say "hmm, i'd better >> improve the efficiency of my program" - he says "your computer is too >> slow". what he should add is "for my incredibly shitty code". Like I already said before, optimizing code is very expensive (because you have to rewrite routines in ASM and ASM programming is much slower and requires more intimate knowledge of the machine's guts) and most customers have sufficient h/w, so the game company runs a if-then-what progression analysis and finds out that they're better off by providing the slower code that runs fine on 486+ machines instead of spending more money on optimizing their code. >> flame away :) > >i'm no techie ... and this is not a flame! :) ... but talking about >coding, isn't it also the fact that the operating system (namely dos and >windows) the REAL factor that we have so much crappy coding in games Well you need an OS unless you wanna boot your game from disk and do EVERYTHING yourself. I don't think more incompatible quickly hacked low level code is what we need. >while 3do doesn't have this factor which reduces some major problems and >overhead? also 3do and consoles of the like, don't have to worry about >different hardware setups to take into consideration (as do pc-games)? That's very true. They know exactly how their sound/video/whatever h/w looks like and write hardwired code for it. Jensi ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 11:38 EET From: Chng Ching Huei Subject: [KLF-TALK:869] Re: KLF Music is Good Mood Setter for Games On Mon, 23 Jan 1995, Schitzo wrote: > > quake? ... it's what they had in japan! sorry, excuse me please, i > couldn't resist! :) > Don't be funny! Benedict Chng. Email: chngchi1@iscs.nus.sg Republic of Singapore ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 11:33 EET From: Chng Ching Huei Subject: [KLF-TALK:868] Re: Mod4Win Expiry On Mon, 23 Jan 1995, Jens Puchert wrote: > Maybe it's not for you then. One of the nice things about Mod4Win is that > you fire it up and then push it in the background while doing your > every day's business with other Windows applications. As far as expiration, > if you have an earlier version than 2.12 get the 2.12 and it'll give you > 30 more days, otherwise you'll have to wait until a new version is released > or set back your machines clock to the original installation date. Well, another way is to simply keep the original installation file 'm4w212sx.zip' and install it all over again when the expiry date is near. Benedict Chng PS: Sorry for suggesting such 'downright!' solution! ----------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 15:14 EET From: andrewm@io.org (Andrew McCallum) Subject: [KLF-TALK:870] Re: whitesand ... >On Sun, 22 Jan 95 06:58 EET, >Andrew McCallum wrote: > >> Schitzo, now you've irked me. It feels weird to know that someone, >>somewhere, right now... is having sex and listening to White Sands. :) > >Aww, come on admit it, you wish it was you :D:D Yeah.. I'll have to do something about that today. (Damn, didn't I say the exact same thing last week? ;) --- .oOo............. Andrew McCallum = Mental Floss [KFMF] ...........oOo. .oO andrewm@io.org Music: ftp:freedom.wit.com/klf/songs/artists/andrewm Oo. oO http://www.io.org/~andrewm/me.html Fon: 905.884.3739 Fax: 905.508.1527 Oo. -----------------